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Hero tuning?

Posts: 4 New Agent

@KomoriMan @Asros

Not so long ago I remember one of the devs saying that underperforming heroes will be looked at once MH:O has been released on console. If Omega gear is supposed to launch in late September (next month) wouldn't it be best to tune up underperforming heroes now so that their respective Omega gear can be designed appropriately? I mean we have big name heroes, such as Captain America, performing way below the median but nothing has been done on him since BUE. I have no idea how Cap is on consoles but in my opinion his powers and playstyle seem fine on PC it's just his damage output is terrible. I'm only using Cap as an obvious example here as the metrics should (hopefully) tell Gaz which heroes fall into that category :)

In summary, can we expect to see any tuning to happen before Omega gear drops or has the decision been made to tune heroes afterwards? Tuning after Omega gear wouldn't make much sense to me as you would then also have to revise the Omega gear accordingly. That being said, I'm not a games developer so there might be good reasons for that decision I am not aware of.

Any sort of response on the matter would be greatly appreciated ;)

Posts: 3,491 Cosmic

@Payneshu said:
You would have thought they would have been doing it all along, but they fired @psylocke it seems, who was the tuning guy.

What ? I don't think so, or at least I have not heard of it. And it's @Psilocke not psylocke (he is still listed as a dev, even thought it does not mean much because @DoomedMaiden also still has the dev tag)

and I don't think Psilocke was the only one doing the tuning. it's just that they have ... other things to do. Also now they have to tune two ever expanding rosters instead of one.

Total hours played on Steam in 2016: 17 474 560,2
Total hours played by the whole community in 2016 according to gaz : 21 517 247
17 474 560,2 / 21 517 247 = 0,8121187715138465

Location b a m fs p a c ePosts: 3,241 Uncanny

At this point I'm not expecting much or anything in the way of PC hero tuning until the Omega update. Their time is at a premium, PC development is not, and any pre-update balancing they do is too likely to be rendered obsolete.

I'm always up for pleasant surprises though.

{ BAMF! }

Location I'm not the second coming, I'm the first wave.Posts: 11,436 Cosmic

@Rasetsu said:

@Payneshu said:
You would have thought they would have been doing it all along, but they fired @psylocke it seems, who was the tuning guy.

What ? I don't think so, or at least I have not heard of it. And it's @Psilocke not psylocke (he is still listed as a dev, even thought it does not mean much because @DoomedMaiden also still has the dev tag)

and I don't think Psilocke was the only one doing the tuning. it's just that they have ... other things to do. Also now they have to tune two ever expanding rosters instead of one.

Also don't forget that the powers team also has to work with the items team to get the Omega item effects working. I'd assume this is why we haven't seen any recent sweeping changes to anyone.

Though if they could just bump up the numbers on Gobby a few notches....

Posts: 6,505 Cosmic

they really need to look at Nick Fury.

Posts: 3,491 Cosmic

@Roscuro said:
they really need to look at Nick Fury.

I don't really think tuning would solve NF's problems. A lot of the complaints are still about his gameplay, not just his performance.

Total hours played on Steam in 2016: 17 474 560,2
Total hours played by the whole community in 2016 according to gaz : 21 517 247
17 474 560,2 / 21 517 247 = 0,8121187715138465

Posts: 574 Amazing

It's very likely (I hope) that they're waiting for the Omega patch so they can tune heroes with the new items in mind.

Location I'm not the second coming, I'm the first wave.Posts: 11,436 Cosmic

@DarkStrife said:

@Payneshu said:
You would have thought they would have been doing it all along, but they fired @psylocke it seems, who was the tuning guy.

Outside of Marvel Heroes I like to think most devs take time to look at character balance etc. However with Gaz's track record, I sadly expect ZERO hero balancing to generally be looked at, unless of course one hero is FAR outperforming others, then it gets looked at pretty quickly.

Gonna disagree. Balance in games is some white whale that's often chased and talked about, but never have I seen it achieved.

MH is actually pretty good with balance baring a few outliers in both directions, and with a roster this size and growing, that's probably the best you can hope for.

Hulked OutPosts: 634 Amazing

@Maggotbreath said:

@DarkStrife said:

@Payneshu said:
You would have thought they would have been doing it all along, but they fired @psylocke it seems, who was the tuning guy.

Outside of Marvel Heroes I like to think most devs take time to look at character balance etc. However with Gaz's track record, I sadly expect ZERO hero balancing to generally be looked at, unless of course one hero is FAR outperforming others, then it gets looked at pretty quickly.

Gonna disagree. Balance in games is some white whale that's often chased and talked about, but never have I seen it achieved.

MH is actually pretty good with balance baring a few outliers in both directions, and with a roster this size and growing, that's probably the best you can hope for.

I understand the roster size makes it a more difficult task than in other games. And I agree to an extent that most other games struggle at times and fail to achieve it, perfectly at least. But I very much disagree that MH has much balance at all among heros. MH has some heroes that SEVERELY lack AOE clearing abilities, some heroes lack very good single target DPS, some heroes can facetank virtually everything, and some cripple over from being looked at. Thats ignoring optimized TTKs where you see a HUGE discrepancy among heroes. Looking at optimized single target DPS TTK times, you don't see a clump of heroes with only a few outliers. Theres a pretty even spread from the 1:10-3:00 mark with very few real outliers in that data.

If you somehow plotted optimal AOE Clearing ability, I would assume that to show mostly clumped as passable with outliers in Exceedingly good and poor pools. Same with Survivability, as most heroes can survive decently, with some exceling and some very fragile. But when you look at the heroes, some of them are in the Trash Panda! tier outliers of survivability and single/aoe. Just stating my opinion, but I don't believe MH characters to be remotely balanced well. As I said, I understand the roster size makes it hard, but IMO it's a BS excuse. With hero releases in the past, we have very clearly seen that they have no standard that they look to release a hero at, and outside of "Power Creep" from items, it was the norm for a while where they just jacked up new heroes far more powerful than prior heroes could ever hope to be. That hasn't been the trend here recently (I dont know how carnage is though, maybe hes great?). But at no point in this game's history have heroes been pretty well balanced. We may be better now than we have been in the past, but I wouldn't say they are very well balanced at all currently.

Posts: 169 Incredible

@xRuin said:
I'd personally like to see small tuning done weekly or biweekly similar to MOBAs and other MMOs considering how much the roster varies. (I'm not talking about talent reworking or ability reworking, just small numbers tuning here and there)

A guy can dream, right? o:)

Completely agreed. Even if it was only a handful of heroes once a month it would be better than the current situation.

Posts: 1,628 Fantastic

@ozmodraven said:

@Insolentius said:
It's very likely (I hope) that they're waiting for the Omega patch so they can tune heroes with the new items in mind.

I really hope they don't do this. Balancing characters by equipment you can only get from doing the hardest content in the game.

They shouldn't need to balance with Omegas in mind. Omegas will be standard rolls, plus one Omega power. That means it should be more predictable and balanced than uniques, and hopefully balance hero-to-hero and Omega-to-Omega and not factor both as a standard package. They kind of have to do this with the massive stat walls that are uniques, mainly since the hero uniques are frequently tailored to fill holes in hero kits. Uniques have always been a problem that way. So while thy shouldn't need to balance heroes with Omegas in mind, they absolutely do with Uniques, and will have a lot of holes to fill after they're no longer the standard.

Location Everywhere....Posts: 6,933 Cosmic

Poor Winter Soldier. The forgotten hero. I'd totally come back permanently if he ever got a tuning. I can't believe they said the update is finished when it clearly isn't.

Give me Medusa,Quake, Archangel and Hercules as playables and I'll consider buying stuffs again!!!!!

IMWITHMARVELSFIRSTFAMILY RIP FF :-(

Hulked OutPosts: 634 Amazing

@HappyHappyJoyJoy said:

@ozmodraven said:

@Insolentius said:
It's very likely (I hope) that they're waiting for the Omega patch so they can tune heroes with the new items in mind.

I really hope they don't do this. Balancing characters by equipment you can only get from doing the hardest content in the game.

They shouldn't need to balance with Omegas in mind. Omegas will be standard rolls, plus one Omega power. That means it should be more predictable and balanced than uniques, and hopefully balance hero-to-hero and Omega-to-Omega and not factor both as a standard package. They kind of have to do this with the massive stat walls that are uniques, mainly since the hero uniques are frequently tailored to fill holes in hero kits. Uniques have always been a problem that way. So while thy shouldn't need to balance heroes with Omegas in mind, they absolutely do with Uniques, and will have a lot of holes to fill after they're no longer the standard.

The problem is without uniques heroes arent balanced, and with their BIS uniques, they still arent balanced. Not saying that the uniques issue isn't a problem, as they have used it to fill a characters kits, the problem is, even with that kit fully assembled heroes arent balanced, and prior to having all of their uniques, they are not remotely balanced either. Last we heard (And please correct me if Im wrong), Omega items are still going to drop with random affixes, and random rolls on affixes, so they still arent predictable or balanced. Only the Omega affix itself will be static, correct?

Posts: 1,628 Fantastic

@DarkStrife said:

@HappyHappyJoyJoy said:

@ozmodraven said:

@Insolentius said:
It's very likely (I hope) that they're waiting for the Omega patch so they can tune heroes with the new items in mind.

I really hope they don't do this. Balancing characters by equipment you can only get from doing the hardest content in the game.

They shouldn't need to balance with Omegas in mind. Omegas will be standard rolls, plus one Omega power. That means it should be more predictable and balanced than uniques, and hopefully balance hero-to-hero and Omega-to-Omega and not factor both as a standard package. They kind of have to do this with the massive stat walls that are uniques, mainly since the hero uniques are frequently tailored to fill holes in hero kits. Uniques have always been a problem that way. So while thy shouldn't need to balance heroes with Omegas in mind, they absolutely do with Uniques, and will have a lot of holes to fill after they're no longer the standard.

The problem is without uniques heroes arent balanced, and with their BIS uniques, they still arent balanced. Not saying that the uniques issue isn't a problem, as they have used it to fill a characters kits, the problem is, even with that kit fully assembled heroes arent balanced, and prior to having all of their uniques, they are not remotely balanced either. Last we heard (And please correct me if Im wrong), Omega items are still going to drop with random affixes, and random rolls on affixes, so they still arent predictable or balanced. Only the Omega affix itself will be static, correct?

They're predictable and balanced in that they all draw from the same pool. They all have the same maximum and minimum and offer the same tools, Omega powers excluded. Current uniques don't do that, and are often treated as a part of the hero's kit. That's a problem. You can't balance the heroes without taking hero uniques into account, since sometimes they're integral to getting the hero to function properly (usually but not always spirit management). You also can't factor them with the hero uniques in play since in several cases boss/raid uniques will out perform them. Which also means that in the cases where there is a potent boss/raid unique for a slot where a particular hero requires their hero unique to functionally complete their kit, that hero is at an inherent and essentially insurmountable disadvantage.

No, it's not the only factor effecting balance, but it is a significant one. Couple that with the powers devs being required for developing Omega powers and that makes right now a terrible time to have devs sinking their teeth into trying to address hero balance. It's a doubly bad idea, and all that work will likely have to be redone post Omega anyway when uniques are no longer the standard anf it exposes a lot of those previously mentioned holes in kits which uniques currently fill.

Posts: 3,491 Cosmic
edited August 9

@HappyHappyJoyJoy said:

@ozmodraven said:

@Insolentius said:
It's very likely (I hope) that they're waiting for the Omega patch so they can tune heroes with the new items in mind.

I really hope they don't do this. Balancing characters by equipment you can only get from doing the hardest content in the game.

They shouldn't need to balance with Omegas in mind. Omegas will be standard rolls, plus one Omega power. That means it should be more predictable and balanced than uniques, and hopefully balance hero-to-hero and Omega-to-Omega and not factor both as a standard package. They kind of have to do this with the massive stat walls that are uniques, mainly since the hero uniques are frequently tailored to fill holes in hero kits. Uniques have always been a problem that way. So while thy shouldn't need to balance heroes with Omegas in mind, they absolutely do with Uniques, and will have a lot of holes to fill after they're no longer the standard.

Uniques are stat sticks.

Omega affixes are supposed to be "build defining" so it's harder to quantify their effect, thus making them harder to balance.

On the other hand I do wonder if they are going to do some overhall in the character's kits, because some uniques were designed with the intent of filling the void inside the character's kit. For example Ikol and its 4,2 spirit on hit because of the lack of spirit sustain in loki's kit.

or they might just copy what they have done on console regarding this matter shrug

Total hours played on Steam in 2016: 17 474 560,2
Total hours played by the whole community in 2016 according to gaz : 21 517 247
17 474 560,2 / 21 517 247 = 0,8121187715138465

MutatedLocation 616Posts: 4,066 Uncanny

Colossus needs to be looked at as well, I was using him last night and his damage output seemed to be really low compared to others I have been using.

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