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Guardian Seraphim?

Location Wellington, NZPosts: 1,387 Fantastic

Is it bugged, or does it have a cd? I've noticed it not proccing from time to time.
@zWolfiez

GazillionLocation Behind the CurtainPosts: 94 Staff

The talent effectively uses Shield of the Seraphim when you fall below 50% health, which would trigger that powers cooldown. If you are seeing something that doesn't follow this behavior, then we can look into it.

Location b a m fs p a c ePosts: 2,544 Fantastic

Good point, @Toshimo .

I tested some of these early on, mainly because I was curious if there was any reason to use the auto-cast CD talents -and- keep the power on the bar too. Turns out, there is! ...but only to keep track of the CDs.

Anyway, it would be nice to have the tooltips on these clarified. I mean, I've just been assuming all auto-cast CDs all work this way, but I'm not actually going to test them all. And I can imagine the majority of players don't have (even) my (limited) patience for testing.

Location Somewhere doing somethingPosts: 2,883 Fantastic
edited March 17

If you put it on Auto-Cast by talents then it works as intended.

All powers that have CD will retain that CD if you use the auto-cast talent to fire off that power. Unless said auto-cast talent modifies the Cooldown of the power.

Else it would proc every second.

GazillionLocation Behind the CurtainPosts: 94 Staff

@Toshimo

So I've noticed. When I read the tooltip, it makes sense to me. But I also understand the design intent, which does skew my bias compared to someone reading it at face value.

Let me pose a question for anyone who has had the same misconceptions - What wording and/or phrases would you use to convey how the power is meant to work, know that these autocast-style talents are meant to give players the option of having the benefits of these powers without taking up bar space?

On a related note, is there anything else we could add to the usefulness/clarity of these talents? @Wyrding hinted that there is no way to see the cooldown of these powers without having them on your bar. The only way we have available to show this is a buff icon, similar to what we've done with self-rez power cooldowns.

As always, I welcome and appreciate all your efforts and input. Once I know where the miscommunication is, I can rewrite those tooltips to make them more understandable.

Posts: 1,643 Cosmic

@zWolfiez said:
@Toshimo

So I've noticed. When I read the tooltip, it makes sense to me. But I also understand the design intent, which does skew my bias compared to someone reading it at face value.

Let me pose a question for anyone who has had the same misconceptions - What wording and/or phrases would you use to convey how the power is meant to work, know that these autocast-style talents are meant to give players the option of having the benefits of these powers without taking up bar space?

On a related note, is there anything else we could add to the usefulness/clarity of these talents? @Wyrding hinted that there is no way to see the cooldown of these powers without having them on your bar. The only way we have available to show this is a buff icon, similar to what we've done with self-rez power cooldowns.

As always, I welcome and appreciate all your efforts and input. Once I know where the miscommunication is, I can rewrite those tooltips to make them more understandable.

I think the confusion with skills like these is whether or not they retain their cooldown. I think because no cooldown is specified in the tooltip people automatically assume it has none.

So simply adding that it goes on cooldown, possibly the length of the cooldown and whether or not that cooldown is still affected by conditions that would normally reduce that powers cooldown would eliminate some confusion.

The buff icon is a very good idea. That would be a welcome qol regarding cd management for powers that are activated while not on your bar.

True BelieverLocation The PericlesPosts: 1,594 Fantastic
edited March 17

@XaolinTheFist said:
@zWolfiez

I think the biggest issue players face when reading tooltips such as this are the lack of essential information. Take for example "Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health"... reading this makes me think every time I fall below 50% hp my talent will activate but in actuality it's stopped by an invisible internal cooldown that isn't listed anywhere. Perhaps if the talent said "Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (5s cooldown)" then this would solve any confusion about how the talent works.

But, it's not a hidden cooldown. Read the text for Guardian Seraphim again: "Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health". Now read the tooltips for Shield of the Seraphim. The cooldown is clearly listed for that power. Guardian Seraphim does not state that it manipulates the cooldown for Shield at all, only that it activates it - talents that do modify cooldowns are clearly marked. Part of activating Shield is also the cooldown. I'm not saying the talent tooltips can't or shouldn't explicitly mention the cooldown, but it logically follows that activating a power through a talent (that doesn't also modify it's cooldown) incurs the normal cooldown for that power.

EDIT: I'm totally down for a buff/debuff icon.

Location Lake Isle of InnisfreePosts: 450 Amazing

"Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (subject to normal power cooldown)." That would be clear.

And now I want to test whether resetting the cooldown by cycling incantations works on Guardian Seraphim. It's difficult to test.

Location b a m fs p a c ePosts: 2,544 Fantastic

@zWolfiez said:
@Toshimo

So I've noticed. When I read the tooltip, it makes sense to me. But I also understand the design intent, which does skew my bias compared to someone reading it at face value.

Let me pose a question for anyone who has had the same misconceptions - What wording and/or phrases would you use to convey how the power is meant to work, know that these autocast-style talents are meant to give players the option of having the benefits of these powers without taking up bar space?

.

A few of these do mention CDs already, although how they do it isn't consistent either. I think the wording of Legal Team on She-Hulk is pretty clear though, and maybe worth emulating: "[condition X] automatically activates [power Y] if it is not on cooldown."

And yeah, a buff bar icon would help. Although I do have some misgivings about adding more of these when it can sometimes get a bit overloaded with icons already. Another feature that could really use some more organization and customizability. (Not your department, I know. :P )

GazillionLocation Behind the CurtainPosts: 94 Staff

@XaolinTheFist

The problem with listing the cooldown in the talent ""Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (10s cooldown)" is it could be inferred that it has a separate cooldown from the active power. I would then get bug reports of "When Shield of the Seraphim triggered from the talent, it put the active power on cooldown too."

As far as using the buff bar to track cooldowns, we try and avoid adding more things to watch since there is already a lot of space being used in that area. It's generally a feature we add when it's frequently requested. Dr. Strange is well known for wanting to keep track of his cooldown rotation, so I can see the argument for adding it if you all feel it would benefit you.

Don't expect anything immediately. I'm going to leave this open for discussion for a while and see if we can land in a good direction. I don't know the She-Hulk wording off hand to say whether or not it acts the same way, but I will look into it when I can. In the meantime, please continue to throw ideas back and forth, and I'll pop in now and again to answer any questions you may have.

Posts: 189 Incredible

@zWolfiez said:

i think the powers should all list there CD's and have a buff icon so we can track it and in cases like strange where incantations can be reset it should state whether or not that will also reset the passive procs CD.

on a much larger note personally i like as much information as i can get tho and would love to see an advanced tool-tip setting that gives just way more info for everything and a new buff bar for your own powers /cds that sits right above the skill bar along with a debuff bar there instead of everything being way offside to the right that constantly sets itself to not even show nothing big just tiny icons with timers in them to actually track your stuff on that note id also love to see a debuff bar on at least bosses for timers not for everything but at least for vulnerable/weaken but this is kind of a whole other discussion.

CovertPosts: 2,169 Cosmic

@zWolfiez

i think part of the confusion is because pre-BUE, this isnt how things worked. for instance, ghost rider was able to auto-cast his buff on sig use, and also activate it manually, without a shared cooldown.

maybe just adding a line saying that these talents have a shared cooldown with the skill they activate would clear things up. even if its technically not a "shared cooldown" since its only 1 skills cooldown, it would get the point across.

so "Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (10s cooldown shared with base skill)"

Location Wellington, NZPosts: 1,387 Fantastic
edited March 17

I think the case is that the power retains its original cooldown without being listed on the talent's tooltip. I haven't extensively tested, but just based on gameplay experience I've seen it not always proccing every time my hp falls under 50%.

Posts: 58 Mighty

Imho it's just people not thinking critically about it. The first time I came across a talent that would trigger a skill, I was asking myself "wait does that put the skill on cd?". I then put the skill in question on the skill bar and let it proc passively. Then I knew it would put the skill on CD.

Posts: 997 Amazing

@zWolfiez said:
@XaolinTheFist

The problem with listing the cooldown in the talent ""Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (10s cooldown)" is it could be inferred that it has a separate cooldown from the active power. I would then get bug reports of "When Shield of the Seraphim triggered from the talent, it put the active power on cooldown too."

As far as using the buff bar to track cooldowns, we try and avoid adding more things to watch since there is already a lot of space being used in that area. It's generally a feature we add when it's frequently requested. Dr. Strange is well known for wanting to keep track of his cooldown rotation, so I can see the argument for adding it if you all feel it would benefit you.

Don't expect anything immediately. I'm going to leave this open for discussion for a while and see if we can land in a good direction. I don't know the She-Hulk wording off hand to say whether or not it acts the same way, but I will look into it when I can. In the meantime, please continue to throw ideas back and forth, and I'll pop in now and again to answer any questions you may have.

list it as this. "When x happens, X activates and behaves as if the player activated the power."

Location MNPosts: 1,187 Fantastic

@wardrb said:
@zWolfiez

i think part of the confusion is because pre-BUE, this isnt how things worked. for instance, ghost rider was able to auto-cast his buff on sig use, and also activate it manually, without a shared cooldown.

maybe just adding a line saying that these talents have a shared cooldown with the skill they activate would clear things up. even if its technically not a "shared cooldown" since its only 1 skills cooldown, it would get the point across.

so "Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (10s cooldown shared with base skill)"

Maybe this talent does not have a seperate cooldown would be better wording but i agree that the label is needed.

Posts: 128 Incredible

Maybe you could have two tooltips for powers like this. One with the normal amount of information, and one with a little more detail akin to what @XaolinTheFist was talking about. Normally mousing over the power would give the condensed tooltip, and mousing over the power while holding down alt would give the more detailed tooltip. This would work similarly to how comparing items works now with alt giving more information than just mousing over.

Posts: 259 Amazing

@zWolfiez said:
@XaolinTheFist

The problem with listing the cooldown in the talent ""Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (10s cooldown)" is it could be inferred that it has a separate cooldown from the active power. I would then get bug reports of "When Shield of the Seraphim triggered from the talent, it put the active power on cooldown too."

As far as using the buff bar to track cooldowns, we try and avoid adding more things to watch since there is already a lot of space being used in that area. It's generally a feature we add when it's frequently requested. Dr. Strange is well known for wanting to keep track of his cooldown rotation, so I can see the argument for adding it if you all feel it would benefit you.

Don't expect anything immediately. I'm going to leave this open for discussion for a while and see if we can land in a good direction. I don't know the She-Hulk wording off hand to say whether or not it acts the same way, but I will look into it when I can. In the meantime, please continue to throw ideas back and forth, and I'll pop in now and again to answer any questions you may have.

I think if this is just the new normal, people will get used to it and you won't need to specify that they are on the same cooldown. as long as all the 'active x power on y condition' traits behave the same way. Though you guys could always add that note to the cooldown bit-- "Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (10s cooldown, shared with active power)"

Posts: 1,662 Fantastic

@zWolfiez said:
@XaolinTheFist

The problem with listing the cooldown in the talent ""Shield of the Seraphim automatically activates when you fall below 50% health (10s cooldown)" is it could be inferred that it has a separate cooldown from the active power. I would then get bug reports of "When Shield of the Seraphim triggered from the talent, it put the active power on cooldown too."

As far as using the buff bar to track cooldowns, we try and avoid adding more things to watch since there is already a lot of space being used in that area. It's generally a feature we add when it's frequently requested. Dr. Strange is well known for wanting to keep track of his cooldown rotation, so I can see the argument for adding it if you all feel it would benefit you.

Don't expect anything immediately. I'm going to leave this open for discussion for a while and see if we can land in a good direction. I don't know the She-Hulk wording off hand to say whether or not it acts the same way, but I will look into it when I can. In the meantime, please continue to throw ideas back and forth, and I'll pop in now and again to answer any questions you may have.

"10s cooldown (shared with active power)" and add the inverse to the active power tool tip when the talent is selected.

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