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Book of Eibon proc bugs.

Location Wandering the left hand pathPosts: 3,784 Cosmic

@zWolfiez the Book of Eibon artifact seems extremely bugged. It is currently one out of two artifacts that I've found that perform better than they should when it comes to the proc, the other one is Symbiote Infestation.

Book of Eibon does not deal the stated damage, it benefits from both Damage Ratings aswell as it has the possibility to crit and brut, something procs should not be able to. Of course unless something has changed in Gaz's philosophy regarding procs in which case all other procs are currently bugged. Please look into this, we dont need broken items in the game impacting builds more than they should, neither in a negative or positive way. Have a look at the Symbiote Infestation aswell, would be nice to get things solved with those 2 items.

Posts: 259 Amazing

Well if they're not supposed to do that then add Mental Focus Headband to the list of artifacts with a proc that scale off hero stats. :P

Sentinel of LibertyPosts: 551 Amazing

@zWolfiez said:
Howdy there.

I am not as familiar with items as some of our other designers, but I will either look into myself or, (more likely) hand it off to someone more knowledgeable about this. Have no fear...I have a guy for that.

The issue with Symbiot Infection's been reported in the Test Center's Squirrel Girl feedback thread. Y'all are planning to nerf SG because she's "overtuned" but many of us believe it's this artifact that causing the sate, not her powers.

Location @turty11Posts: 829 Amazing

Eibon is STILL bugged? That things going to get nerfed into the bottom of the artifact pile at this rate.

Posts: 609 Amazing

@pwturty said:
Eibon is STILL bugged? That things going to get nerfed into the bottom of the artifact pile at this rate.

All they did was lower the base damage on the proc, it's still affected by damage ratings/crit/brut

Location FuturePosts: 3,744 Uncanny

While you're at it fix Bow, Trident and that other one of the level 80 legendary.

Their procs were unaffected by the BUE damage nerf and so far are the outliers of level 80 legendary simply because the procs are unmitigated.

Posts: 609 Amazing

@ShadowReflux said:
While you're at it fix Bow, Trident and that other one of the level 80 legendary.

Their procs were unaffected by the BUE damage nerf and so far are the outliers of level 80 legendary simply because the procs are unmitigated.

No procs were affected by the "BUE damage nerf" (which consisted in making skills use their rank 1 values).

I wouldn't say they're outliers except maybe for Bow on characters with really high proc coefficients, as one of the procs runs only on ICD. Though this seems more like an issue of balancing ICDs, not with the items themselves.

Location Wandering the left hand pathPosts: 3,784 Cosmic

@ShadowReflux said:
While you're at it fix Bow, Trident and that other one of the level 80 legendary.

Their procs were unaffected by the BUE damage nerf and so far are the outliers of level 80 legendary simply because the procs are unmitigated.

Those procs are perfectly fine and inline with the value of procs. They arent effected by player stats. No proc in the game has been touched since BUE except for Eibon, which is still bugged and benefits from player stats.

I pretty much just wanna know if it is a bug with Eibon or a bug with every proc that doesnt scale with player stats. Having it both ways is extremely confusing and should be a thing. You either have scaling procs or you dont, or the items that have them should have it specifically stated in the proc tooltip on the item. So people can account for it while comparing item strengths and weaknesses.

@zWolfiez thanks for looking into it, please give us an update on what you find when you find it. :)

Posts: 1,095 Fantastic

I think having item effects scale properly (as in viable but comparable and often worse than stats) from stats would open a lot of interesting options.

Or the alternative is to have them either have non-scaling procs that appear not to be included in the item budget for flavor (like Hand of Doom) or be just terrible or too good or the item in question has good stats with an added useful defensive effect (eg. ACoC).
The second category is the one that needs some review.
Not all procs need to scale to be viable - either because they are otherwise useful, potent enough without scaling or just a flavor bonus anyway.

Location Wandering the left hand pathPosts: 3,784 Cosmic

@Tgreen said:
I think having item effects scale properly (as in viable but comparable and often worse than stats) from stats would open a lot of interesting options.

Or the alternative is to have them either have non-scaling procs that appear not to be included in the item budget for flavor (like Hand of Doom) or be just terrible or too good or the item in question has good stats with an added useful defensive effect (eg. ACoC).
The second category is the one that needs some review.
Not all procs need to scale to be viable - either because they are otherwise useful, potent enough without scaling or just a flavor bonus anyway.

Aslong as they make it perfectly clear which procs scale and which procs doesnt it is OK in my book. But right now, looking at Eibon, it seems the proc is just a regular proc on the item with no real budget cost.

Posts: 1,095 Fantastic

@SneakyErvin said:

@Tgreen said:
I think having item effects scale properly (as in viable but comparable and often worse than stats) from stats would open a lot of interesting options.

Or the alternative is to have them either have non-scaling procs that appear not to be included in the item budget for flavor (like Hand of Doom) or be just terrible or too good or the item in question has good stats with an added useful defensive effect (eg. ACoC).
The second category is the one that needs some review.
Not all procs need to scale to be viable - either because they are otherwise useful, potent enough without scaling or just a flavor bonus anyway.

Aslong as they make it perfectly clear which procs scale and which procs doesnt it is OK in my book. But right now, looking at Eibon, it seems the proc is just a regular proc on the item with no real budget cost.

I wouldn't say Book of Eibon is anything but vendor trash if you just take away the proc. To me it very much looks like it was accounted for when the item was designed ... or ofc it was deliberately made a lot worse than Demonicus.

Location Wandering the left hand pathPosts: 3,784 Cosmic

@Tgreen said:

@SneakyErvin said:

@Tgreen said:
I think having item effects scale properly (as in viable but comparable and often worse than stats) from stats would open a lot of interesting options.

Or the alternative is to have them either have non-scaling procs that appear not to be included in the item budget for flavor (like Hand of Doom) or be just terrible or too good or the item in question has good stats with an added useful defensive effect (eg. ACoC).
The second category is the one that needs some review.
Not all procs need to scale to be viable - either because they are otherwise useful, potent enough without scaling or just a flavor bonus anyway.

Aslong as they make it perfectly clear which procs scale and which procs doesnt it is OK in my book. But right now, looking at Eibon, it seems the proc is just a regular proc on the item with no real budget cost.

I wouldn't say Book of Eibon is anything but vendor trash if you just take away the proc. To me it very much looks like it was accounted for when the item was designed ... or ofc it was deliberately made a lot worse than Demonicus.

I think it depends on the hero. It was most likely made as an artifact for heroes that scale from spirit. But it has turned into a BiS item for pretty much everyone even if you cant make use of all the stats.

Posts: 1,095 Fantastic

@SneakyErvin said:

@Tgreen said:

@SneakyErvin said:

@Tgreen said:
I think having item effects scale properly (as in viable but comparable and often worse than stats) from stats would open a lot of interesting options.

Or the alternative is to have them either have non-scaling procs that appear not to be included in the item budget for flavor (like Hand of Doom) or be just terrible or too good or the item in question has good stats with an added useful defensive effect (eg. ACoC).
The second category is the one that needs some review.
Not all procs need to scale to be viable - either because they are otherwise useful, potent enough without scaling or just a flavor bonus anyway.

Aslong as they make it perfectly clear which procs scale and which procs doesnt it is OK in my book. But right now, looking at Eibon, it seems the proc is just a regular proc on the item with no real budget cost.

I wouldn't say Book of Eibon is anything but vendor trash if you just take away the proc. To me it very much looks like it was accounted for when the item was designed ... or ofc it was deliberately made a lot worse than Demonicus.

I think it depends on the hero. It was most likely made as an artifact for heroes that scale from spirit. But it has turned into a BiS item for pretty much everyone even if you cant make use of all the stats.

Probably that was the thought process and yet it's really low on the list of "stuff that's great for Iron Man". In those cases spirit can be easily converted into damage rating and you'll see you'd come up short.

It's great if you want to/can abuse the current state of the proc ... which is broken.

Location Buff Psi CrushPosts: 1,369 Fantastic

@SneakyErvin said:

@Tgreen said:
I think having item effects scale properly (as in viable but comparable and often worse than stats) from stats would open a lot of interesting options.

Or the alternative is to have them either have non-scaling procs that appear not to be included in the item budget for flavor (like Hand of Doom) or be just terrible or too good or the item in question has good stats with an added useful defensive effect (eg. ACoC).
The second category is the one that needs some review.
Not all procs need to scale to be viable - either because they are otherwise useful, potent enough without scaling or just a flavor bonus anyway.

Aslong as they make it perfectly clear which procs scale and which procs doesnt it is OK in my book. But right now, looking at Eibon, it seems the proc is just a regular proc on the item with no real budget cost.

As much as I agree that clarity and consistency are lacking, I disagree that making all procs consistently bad is better than a little inconsistency where some are left usable but balanced.

Eibon's stats are really unappealing for the most part. There's not a single character I would use it on if the proc didn't scale. Right now, I currently use it on Black Cat in a pure claws build (fighting/melee). I sometimes use it on Psylocke if I need to push closer to 30% aspd, but it's just one of many options.

My point is that the item is as close to a perfect item as we've seen in a very long time. For a lot of heroes, spirit feels like paying to reverse a penalty. Attack speed has super harsh diminishing returns. Neither feels very satisfying to gear for. It's good design when a useful proc can make interesting, useful items with otherwise unappealing/junk/throwaway stats. As a longtime gamer, I think it's a bad thing when items can be precisely categorized as good/trash at a glance. There should be things worth finding if you go looking for them.

That said, there's something to be said for clarity and consistency, and MH has systemic problems with both of those things dating back to early Omega. There should be room for players to explore itemization, but players should not have to randomly grasp in the dark. This is true in regards to a variety of item effects, including scaling, damage on summon procs, internal cooldowns, proc buff timers in buff bar, etc.

The current situation with procs is that uninformed players tend to think procs are much better or worse than they actually are due to a lack of tooltip clarity and UI information. On the other hand, informed players tend to be frustrated with procs because of how they interact with snapshotting, or because there's almost always some caveat that guts the value of the proc. Such as:

  • hidden internal cooldowns (particularly frustrating that they run throughout brand new cosmic affixes)
  • buffs that can only refresh once they fall off (Brooch)
  • buffs that are not affected by power duration (Demonicus before tooltip update)
  • buffs that stealth-scale (Eibon, MFH)
  • procs with no damage/effect information (Wiz, Onslaught Medallion, etc)
  • hidden proc coefficients that cause uptime gaps between heroes/builds
  • short duration procs with long cooldowns that are randomly horrible or OP due to snapshotting
  • hidden restrictions on buff benefits (Gorilla Spear only buffing summons that are active when buff procs)
  • hidden maximum proc limit (Mask of Doom)

All of these issues negatively impact the value of the items in question, with the exception of stealth-scaling. The procs make otherwise bad items appealing and usable. That's a model for a good solution to an existing problem. Compounding a frustrating problem for the sake of "consistency" is not a solution.

Posts: 908 Amazing

For whatever it's worth, I'm casting my vote for more detailed tooltips on gear in general. I'm a training room guy, I love testing different gear/build combinations but it's frustrating to farm for an item because you expect it to work one way but then when you get it, you find out it doesn't work as you expected. I've pretty much reached the point where I have no expectations til I get my hands on an item and put it through isolated testing.

Here's an off the top of my head list of recent findings:

  • A.R.M.O.R Dimensional Power Portal Generator: Buff effect is NOT affected by power duration. I bought this expecting that power duration would work on it because it didn't specifically say it wouldn't.
  • Advanced S.H.I.E.L.D. Motion Analyzer: even after testing this thing, I still can't really explain which powers are affected/not affected, how max range is defined, if the damage bonus is scaled smoothly by distance to target or in steps etc.
  • Cybernetic Implant: buff kicks in when you drop below spirit threshold and stays active for 10 seconds even if you refill your spirit immediately afterwards and the buff is affected by power duration.
  • Ultron Bi-Level Concussion Projector: I need to do more testing on this but I'm pretty sure the phys damage proc scales and can crit/brut.
  • Cobra's Hood: not sure what's going on with this yet. I've heard the 10% vulnerability stacks with other sources of vulnerability and I've also heard that it doesn't stack. It's popularity is growing because it's been used in a handful of top TTKs recently, so maybe the proc scales as well.
  • Cosmic Slot 3/5 Affix - +1% damage for each 50/spirit: 5 second buff that IS affected by power duration but has an unlisted 10 second internal cooldown.
  • Cosmic Slot 3/5 Affix - Phys Dmg. Toxic DoT: if it has an internal cooldown, it's no more than a second and the damage scales and can crit/brut.
Posts: 219 Amazing

Procs are undoubtedly one of the most unnecessarily complex aspects of itemisations, primarily due to horrendously uninformative tooltips. Given their overly simplified descriptions, almost all of them could be correctly interpreted as misbehaving, and only after filing a "bug" report are we informed of completely invisible internal cooldowns, proc coefficients, proc scaling, proc limits, snapshotting, or even just any specific details of the effects a proc produces.

After this bug was previously reported, I'm surprised all they did was lower the base damage. What's more worrying however is if the reason behind Squirrel Girl's nerf is actually down to erroneously overpowered items.

Location Wandering the left hand pathPosts: 3,784 Cosmic

@Ryven said:

@SneakyErvin said:

@Tgreen said:
I think having item effects scale properly (as in viable but comparable and often worse than stats) from stats would open a lot of interesting options.

Or the alternative is to have them either have non-scaling procs that appear not to be included in the item budget for flavor (like Hand of Doom) or be just terrible or too good or the item in question has good stats with an added useful defensive effect (eg. ACoC).
The second category is the one that needs some review.
Not all procs need to scale to be viable - either because they are otherwise useful, potent enough without scaling or just a flavor bonus anyway.

Aslong as they make it perfectly clear which procs scale and which procs doesnt it is OK in my book. But right now, looking at Eibon, it seems the proc is just a regular proc on the item with no real budget cost.

As much as I agree that clarity and consistency are lacking, I disagree that making all procs consistently bad is better than a little inconsistency where some are left usable but balanced.

Eibon's stats are really unappealing for the most part. There's not a single character I would use it on if the proc didn't scale. Right now, I currently use it on Black Cat in a pure claws build (fighting/melee). I sometimes use it on Psylocke if I need to push closer to 30% aspd, but it's just one of many options.

My point is that the item is as close to a perfect item as we've seen in a very long time. For a lot of heroes, spirit feels like paying to reverse a penalty. Attack speed has super harsh diminishing returns. Neither feels very satisfying to gear for. It's good design when a useful proc can make interesting, useful items with otherwise unappealing/junk/throwaway stats. As a longtime gamer, I think it's a bad thing when items can be precisely categorized as good/trash at a glance. There should be things worth finding if you go looking for them.

That said, there's something to be said for clarity and consistency, and MH has systemic problems with both of those things dating back to early Omega. There should be room for players to explore itemization, but players should not have to randomly grasp in the dark. This is true in regards to a variety of item effects, including scaling, damage on summon procs, internal cooldowns, proc buff timers in buff bar, etc.

The current situation with procs is that uninformed players tend to think procs are much better or worse than they actually are due to a lack of tooltip clarity and UI information. On the other hand, informed players tend to be frustrated with procs because of how they interact with snapshotting, or because there's almost always some caveat that guts the value of the proc. Such as:

  • hidden internal cooldowns (particularly frustrating that they run throughout brand new cosmic affixes)
  • buffs that can only refresh once they fall off (Brooch)
  • buffs that are not affected by power duration (Demonicus before tooltip update)
  • buffs that stealth-scale (Eibon, MFH)
  • procs with no damage/effect information (Wiz, Onslaught Medallion, etc)
  • hidden proc coefficients that cause uptime gaps between heroes/builds
  • short duration procs with long cooldowns that are randomly horrible or OP due to snapshotting
  • hidden restrictions on buff benefits (Gorilla Spear only buffing summons that are active when buff procs)
  • hidden maximum proc limit (Mask of Doom)

All of these issues negatively impact the value of the items in question, with the exception of stealth-scaling. The procs make otherwise bad items appealing and usable. That's a model for a good solution to an existing problem. Compounding a frustrating problem for the sake of "consistency" is not a solution.

For me it is just that having things all over the place without any indications kinda counter-acts the whole purpose of the BUE, where the red thread tying it all together has been simplicity. It's been stated time and time again by devs like @Asros that they want us to have an easier time diving into the game instead of micro-managing everything before that can happen.

Sadly the lack of info on procs is kinda killing this whole "dive into" concept, and so does the new cosmic items. You need to look through it all to see what you have and how it works before diving into the content. They need to clear things up. As the Wizard or SI artifacts, they need to have a tooltip tied to them that shows how much damage they do. We have to be able to value the items with a quick look when comparing them. I shouldnt have to sit and test half an hour in the TR just to see how well the proc performs in order to make a judgement call on wether or not the item is worth using.

Gaz needs to bring us more transparency on items so we know exactly what they do. Heck there are plenty of skills and talents currently that are also very vague and you have to guess what they actually mean.

I'm not against inconsistancy in procs. It's all ok if some scale and others dont, but we must have that info in the item tooltip, otherwise many items will just be thrown to the side until someone notices that the item scales, like the case with Eibon or SI.

Posts: 637 Amazing

@SneakyErvin said:
@zWolfiez the Book of Eibon artifact seems extremely bugged. It is currently one out of two artifacts that I've found that perform better than they should when it comes to the proc, the other one is Symbiote Infestation.

Book of Eibon does not deal the stated damage, it benefits from both Damage Ratings aswell as it has the possibility to crit and brut, something procs should not be able to. Of course unless something has changed in Gaz's philosophy regarding procs in which case all other procs are currently bugged. Please look into this, we dont need broken items in the game impacting builds more than they should, neither in a negative or positive way. Have a look at the Symbiote Infestation aswell, would be nice to get things solved with those 2 items.

All procs on items aside from legendaries have been able to crit and brut for as long as i can remember

Posts: 908 Amazing
edited March 15

@WHITEone said:
All procs on items aside from legendaries have been able to crit and brut for as long as i can remember

https://forums.marvelheroes.com/discussion/comment/1439339#Comment_1439339

@Ryolnir said:
Some procs were previously able to crit (despite all procs being unable to by design) - these have been corrected.

Posts: 637 Amazing
edited March 15

@Dravis said:

@WHITEone said:
All procs on items aside from legendaries have been able to crit and brut for as long as i can remember

https://forums.marvelheroes.com/discussion/comment/1439339#Comment_1439339

@Ryolnir said:
Some procs were previously able to crit (despite all procs being unable to by design) - these have been corrected.

well that patch note from 3 years ago never actually fixed anything or something shortly after has reverted the change, because damage procs from items except legenedaries on all my characters have been criting and bruting since long before the bue

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