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[Test Center] Iceman Update (2/22)

Posts: 1,889 Cosmic

@XxMacrostheBlackxX said:
Actually, I will add something else:

"Hail Drop now Weakens enemies by default, and functions with the Avalanche talent."

At first I thought this was awesome. I love the idea of spending the armor to increase damage. However, in a ranged iceman build (which hail drop is clearly intended for) there is absolutely no way you would take the avalanche talent over Icebreaker, right? I feel like such an awesome idea will be severely underused. Could the armor spending mechanic just be incorporated into the crushing cold talent?

Yeah, I've been mulling over that exact quandary. I'm going to run the numbers once I get back home to boot up TC, but there does seem to be a direct conflict with Avalanche and Shatter that could lead Shatter out to be the better option in all cases. You're being asked to enhance a single shatter power or enhance the whole shatter mechanic. The former has a drawback in that it requires and then spends your Armor while the latter is a blanket upgrade. Will cook numbers here in a bit.

Location New YorkPosts: 500 Amazing
edited February 16

Awesome, thanks for the added clarification. Good luck, let me know what you find :D If you crunch the numbers and they are both viable options, then more choices is better, but if one choice is clearly superior over the other, which it appears to when taken at face value, then that wouldn't really be much of a choice at all.

Location Waiting for more Colossal UpdatesPosts: 573 Amazing

@MichaelMayhem said:
Devspeak. Spike Punch == Frozen Lance.

Aw..... I almost thought we had a melee Frozen Lance alternate... :P

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic
edited February 17

Are you guys going to give us any alternative to Flash Freeze? I would be more than happy to use Frost Nova in my ranged build but there is no way I am sacrificing 1. Stationary Orb 2. 2 Layers ;y And 200% dmg seems like a big deal.

MutatedPosts: 304 Amazing

@ClockworkBard said:
Yeah, I've been mulling over that exact quandary. I'm going to run the numbers once I get back home to boot up TC, but there does seem to be a direct conflict with Avalanche and Shatter that could lead Shatter out to be the better option in all cases. You're being asked to enhance a single shatter power or enhance the whole shatter mechanic. The former has a drawback in that it requires and then spends your Armor while the latter is a blanket upgrade. Will cook numbers here in a bit.

I'm interested to see what you find. I'm not entirely against the idea of a build that focuses around beams and other cooldowns that doesn't take full advantage of the Shatter mechanic. For choices, playstyles, alternatives, that sort of thing. What with Chilblain getting a damage increase (hopefully a substantial one) and all of that, I'm all for having a build that doesn't revolve around a currently clunky (but hopefully dewrinkled at some point) mechanic like Shatter.

Time will tell.

Posts: 556 Amazing

@MichaelMayhem said:
Iceman's changes did not make it in time for this build, sorry. Definitely will be in tomorrow.

Here's the notes to digest 'till then:

Chillblain base damage increased.

Frozen Orb base damage increased.

Icebreaker now also reduces the cooldown of Flash Freeze/Frost Nova

Hail Drop now Weakens enemies by default, and functions with the Avalanche talent.

Snowblower is once again stationary, serving the purpose of a channeled large-area clearing skill for Iceman. The radius of the power has been increased.

Snow Plow is now a Chill power. Snow Plow no longer Shatters.

Work of Art no longer scales as a Summon power by default, increasing its base damage and making it more attractive for non-Summon builds. The talent Chilling Constructs restores this functionality.

Ice Beam and Snowblower's Start and End animation times have been removed to improve responsiveness.

When Ice Beam is upgraded with Chilled to the Bone, it will have a slightly more impactful visual using an Ice Beam with each hand.

Frozen visuals for Ice Man now include a larger, more noticable particle of ice attached to the ground underneath each frozen target. This should help the effect be more noticeable in a fight.

Frozen Lance now always critically hits.

Any word on fixing the animation hitch on Flash Freeze? This is something that did not exist before BUE, and did not go away with the animation cancelling patch. It's VERY noticeable if you try it against frost nova, and for reasons i already mentioned earlier it makes the skill strictly worse than just using more shatters.

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic

Agreed with my boy @AlecTheLad here. Get rid of flash freeze. You are making a sexy Ice Beam already... Give us a better radius of Frost Nova instead. It's current radius is fine for melee just expand on it a bit more and make it grand for ranged too. Please and thank you

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic
edited February 17

@Faffinette said:

@MichaelMayhem said:
Iceman's changes did not make it in time for this build, sorry. Definitely will be in tomorrow.

Here's the notes to digest 'till then:

Chillblain base damage increased.

Frozen Orb base damage increased.

Icebreaker now also reduces the cooldown of Flash Freeze/Frost Nova

Hail Drop now Weakens enemies by default, and functions with the Avalanche talent.

Snowblower is once again stationary, serving the purpose of a channeled large-area clearing skill for Iceman. The radius of the power has been increased.

Snow Plow is now a Chill power. Snow Plow no longer Shatters.

Work of Art no longer scales as a Summon power by default, increasing its base damage and making it more attractive for non-Summon builds. The talent Chilling Constructs restores this functionality.

Ice Beam and Snowblower's Start and End animation times have been removed to improve responsiveness.

When Ice Beam is upgraded with Chilled to the Bone, it will have a slightly more impactful visual using an Ice Beam with each hand.

Frozen visuals for Ice Man now include a larger, more noticable particle of ice attached to the ground underneath each frozen target. This should help the effect be more noticeable in a fight.

Frozen Lance now always critically hits.

Any word on fixing the animation hitch on Flash Freeze? This is something that did not exist before BUE, and did not go away with the animation cancelling patch. It's VERY noticeable if you try it against frost nova, and for reasons i already mentioned earlier it makes the skill strictly worse than just using more shatters.

The hitch existed ever since the skill was made :/ I hated it right from the start. I don't mind it existing but let's face it. It can't coexist with Frost Nova and without it's effect there is no room for it. :Y

MutatedPosts: 304 Amazing
edited February 17

It's not like a wide radius for Frost Nova is out of line for Bobby. He's an Omega level mutant.

Not only does Frost Nova flow better anyways (I used it pre-BUE for a ranged build and my summoner build) but it looks awesome. It also helps a ranged Arctic Wave and Hail Drop hit more frozen targets. If the duration was upped just a little bit, then it would all in all make for a smoother time for just about everyone.

Think about it. No animation hitch. No getting killed because you thought you hit the key for Frozen Lance - and you did - but Flash Freeze is awkward and has a delay and got you killed because it betrayed you so you stood there like a baboon instead of shattering enemies.

I'd argue that you could turn Ice Slick into a chill power to reduce AOE deep freezes if that's the issue. This gives us another chill layer on a skill that's quite popular.

Posts: 556 Amazing

@Celfix said:

@Faffinette said:

@MichaelMayhem said:
Iceman's changes did not make it in time for this build, sorry. Definitely will be in tomorrow.

Here's the notes to digest 'till then:

Chillblain base damage increased.

Frozen Orb base damage increased.

Icebreaker now also reduces the cooldown of Flash Freeze/Frost Nova

Hail Drop now Weakens enemies by default, and functions with the Avalanche talent.

Snowblower is once again stationary, serving the purpose of a channeled large-area clearing skill for Iceman. The radius of the power has been increased.

Snow Plow is now a Chill power. Snow Plow no longer Shatters.

Work of Art no longer scales as a Summon power by default, increasing its base damage and making it more attractive for non-Summon builds. The talent Chilling Constructs restores this functionality.

Ice Beam and Snowblower's Start and End animation times have been removed to improve responsiveness.

When Ice Beam is upgraded with Chilled to the Bone, it will have a slightly more impactful visual using an Ice Beam with each hand.

Frozen visuals for Ice Man now include a larger, more noticable particle of ice attached to the ground underneath each frozen target. This should help the effect be more noticeable in a fight.

Frozen Lance now always critically hits.

Any word on fixing the animation hitch on Flash Freeze? This is something that did not exist before BUE, and did not go away with the animation cancelling patch. It's VERY noticeable if you try it against frost nova, and for reasons i already mentioned earlier it makes the skill strictly worse than just using more shatters.

The hitch existed ever since the skill was made :/ I hated it right from the start. I don't mind it existing but let's face it. It can't coexist with Frost Nova and without it's effect there is no room for it. :Y

It didn't actually. I played Iceman since he came out and it was definitely not there. Flash Freeze always had a bit of a cast time, but it comboed into Shatter powers somewhat seamlessly. BUE changed that in a way that made him basically impossible to play for me.

I mean, it was never a cool skill in the first place. You were casting a skill constantly solely for buffing another one - it was pretty bad design. It also kept his shatter powers single target for all intents and purposes, despite having a cone aoe. But yeah, that hitch at the end where you can't cast or even queue any other skills wasn't there.

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic

@AlecTheLad said:
It's not like a wide radius for Frost Nova is out of line for Bobby. He's an Omega level mutant.

Not only does Frost Nova flow better anyways (I used it pre-BUE for a ranged build and my summoner build) but it looks awesome. It also helps a ranged Arctic Wave and Hail Drop hit more frozen targets. If the duration was upped just a little bit, then it would all in all make for a smoother time for just about everyone.

Think about it. No animation hitch. No getting killed because you thought you hit the key for Frozen Lance - and you did - but Flash Freeze is awkward and has a delay and got you killed because it betrayed you so you stood there like a baboon instead of shattering enemies.

I'd argue that you could turn Ice Slick into a chill power to reduce AOE deep freezes if that's the issue. This gives us another chill layer on a skill that's quite popular.

Not even that.. We need a nice large AoE in his kit! Jean / Storm / HT all get to dominate with AoE's why can't Bobby!

Location Waiting for more Colossal UpdatesPosts: 573 Amazing
edited February 17

@AlecTheLad said:

@Faffinette said:
Any word on fixing the animation hitch on Flash Freeze? This is something that did not exist before BUE, and did not go away with the animation cancelling patch. It's VERY noticeable if you try it against frost nova, and for reasons i already mentioned earlier it makes the skill strictly worse than just using more shatters.

Delete Flash Freeze. Make Alec the happiest boy in the world. Make Frost Nova a screenwide deep freeze. Make everyone super happy with its sexiness. Make a new talent option. Profit.

Since Frost Golems activates a direct Snowball attack, the only niche Flash Freeze has is kind of erased and an AoE Frost Nova is miles ahead cooler and better than a single target Flash Freeze. I get where they were trying to go with the power, but it's not flashy... I concur! Lol
I know there is this philosophy of not trying to delete powers but I mean I wouldn't mind Flash Freeze disappearing lol (especially when I've mis-targetted Flash Freeze too XD )

MutatedPosts: 304 Amazing

Yeah, Flash Freeze was always clunky, but it was the stupid cast time for Iceman to fire off a small beam that took forever. After the BUE, it also got a pointless delay after casting, while still having the delay for him to do it in the first place. It always hitched, but, now it's double the hitch.

Posts: 26 Mighty
edited February 17

Someone keeps deleting my comments for no reason... Why?

@AlecTheLad said:

@Faffinette said:
Any word on fixing the animation hitch on Flash Freeze? This is something that did not exist before BUE, and did not go away with the animation cancelling patch. It's VERY noticeable if you try it against frost nova, and for reasons i already mentioned earlier it makes the skill strictly worse than just using more shatters.

Delete Flash Freeze. Make Alec the happiest boy in the world. Make Frost Nova a screenwide deep freeze. Make everyone super happy with its sexiness. Make a new talent option. Profit.

I agree to some degree. If we make Flash Freeze AoE OR make Frost Nova ranged, we'd be freeing up a Talent Slot.

I'd also like to add that it would make it reasonable to remove the Deep Freeze from Ice Slick while making Flash Freeze a ranged AoE. They would become unique and more meaningful in a rotation, as well as open up more builds that utilize other freezing powers like Frozen Orb and Ice Beam since Deep Freeze can only be applied so often.

Posts: 26 Mighty

@AlecTheLad said:
Yeah, Flash Freeze was always clunky, but it was the stupid cast time for Iceman to fire off a small beam that took forever. After the BUE, it also got a pointless delay after casting, while still having the delay for him to do it in the first place. It always hitched, but, now it's double the hitch.

I feel like if Flash Freeze was AoE, it would warrant the delays, though they should still be fixed since it feels so clunky.

Posts: 556 Amazing

@LordBalen said:
Someone keeps deleting my comments for no reason... Why?

@AlecTheLad said:

@Faffinette said:
Any word on fixing the animation hitch on Flash Freeze? This is something that did not exist before BUE, and did not go away with the animation cancelling patch. It's VERY noticeable if you try it against frost nova, and for reasons i already mentioned earlier it makes the skill strictly worse than just using more shatters.

Delete Flash Freeze. Make Alec the happiest boy in the world. Make Frost Nova a screenwide deep freeze. Make everyone super happy with its sexiness. Make a new talent option. Profit.

I agree. If we make Flash Freeze AoE OR make Frost Nova ranged, we'd be freeing up a Talent Slot.

I'd also like to add that it would make it reasonable to remove the Deep Freeze from Ice Slick, making them each unique and more meaningful in a rotation, as well as open up more builds that utilize other freezing powers like Frozen Orb and Ice Beam since Deep Freeze can only be applied so often.

lol i noticed that, i saw your post get deleted like 3 times? hahah

Anyway, Ice Slick is one of the 3 total Deep Freezes we have - Ice Slick, Flash Freeze (or Frost Nova), and Frozen Orbs. Keeping it on Ice Slick is to everyone's best interest since Frozen Orbs is terrible for melee builds, and also pretty bad at the job since it takes a while to come out and hit - and Flash Freeze is terrible all around.

Speaking of Frozen Orbs @MichaelMayhem shouldn't Chill be on Frozen Orbs as well? I assume Snow Plow is Glacial Slam? In which case ranged builds still don't have a reliable way to apply it other than weaving in Icebeam/Snowblower - which's terrible for a myriad of reasons.

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic
edited February 17

@Faffinette said:

Snow plow is the Dash =p Which still isn't the ideal applicator for chill.

MutatedPosts: 304 Amazing

@LordBalen said:
I feel like if Flash Freeze was AoE, it would warrant the delays, though they should still be fixed since it feels so clunky.

It didn't used to have the after-delay though. It's been an issue brought up by many because it ignores you pressing the key for your next power, causing you to be nothing more than an icy punching bag. You can't even resume your spender of choice because literally nothing you press responds until a second after you cast it. Not even the animation canceling changes managed to fix it. It's just a buggy power.

Since it has the same functionality as Frost Nova while looking much worse and has the hitch they've never been able to fix, just take it out. Bump up the range of Frost Nova which is far more fluid. Like @MetaPikaKirby said, the only other use for Flash Freeze before the BUE was to direct your golems to attack a specific target. But that direction is on the golem skill itself now. It's just superfluous and acts as an inducer of headaches.

If they could make it an AOE effect then so be it, but I feel like just cutting to the chase of making Frost Nova a larger radius and freeing up a talent option for something else makes for a more streamlined Iceman experience.

@Faffinette
Good point. For some reason I thought he had more Deep Freeze applicators. Unless the Renewing Cold talent changed Ice Slick from basic Chill to a Deep Freeze, yeah it should probably remain a Deep Freeze power for the sake of the melee folk.

Posts: 26 Mighty
edited February 17

@Faffinette said:

lol i noticed that, i saw your post get deleted like 3 times? hahah

Anyway, Ice Slick is one of the 3 total Deep Freezes we have - Ice Slick, Flash Freeze (or Frost Nova), and Frozen Orbs. Keeping it on Ice Slick is to everyone's best interest since Frozen Orbs is terrible for melee builds, and also pretty bad at the job since it takes a while to come out and hit - and Flash Freeze is terrible all around.

Speaking of Frozen Orbs @MichaelMayhem shouldn't Chill be on Frozen Orbs as well? I assume Snow Plow is Glacial Slam? In which case ranged builds still don't have a reliable way to apply it other than weaving in Icebeam/Snowblower - which's terrible for a myriad of reasons.

Someone must not like me (which is understandable)

Honestly, I don't think Deep Freeze can proc more than twice within a certain time period (much longer than a two freeze rotation) since it seems to have a period where Crowd Control will not proc again. I find Ice Slick redundant and feels somewhat unnecessary to stack all of those effects on one ability.

Separating the power - buffing Ice Slick's DoT and Slow while making Flash Freeze a ranged AoE Freeze seems to be reasonable and doesn't really affect gameplay negatively since Deep Freeze can't really be proc'd more than what we already have access to.

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