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[Test Center] Iceman Update (2/22)

MutatedPosts: 304 Amazing

@XxMacrostheBlackxX said:
Hmm, if it did receive a bump as you indicate, then the problem is it still doesn't feel impactful when it's used. Maybe there could be a talent that reduces the charge to 1 with a cd of 6 sec but then has a significant bump in damage? That way those that want to use forb more can keep the two charge version as it is now, but those that want it to be more of an area clear could have the longer cooldown option?

I'll add that this could help alleviate some rotation stress. It isn't for everyone, but it could help one of the problems addressed that is going to be looked into.

Pro FounderPosts: 4,576 Cosmic

I hope there's some melee summoner love! And honestly, I do enjoy Frozen Orb as is as well as Frost Nova with cooldown since it makes his rotation smoother.

WallcrawlerPosts: 4,477 Cosmic

@MichaelMayhem said:

Snowblower has mixed feedback regarding stationary vs moving. Stationary makes it a better area clear, but does force it into a similar space as Ice Beam. Moving is better for theme (it was added due to requests for more Ice Slide combat tricks), but is harder to keep damage on a target. We can return this on a talent, but it has the problem of needing to be added on to another talent - on its own, it's too niche to eat an entire talent slot, and added onto any other talent, it may create friction if you want only a portion of that talent and not the change to Snowblower. Best course of action at this point seems to be to keep it stationary, since the mobile version can't be as fast as the ice slide would want to be and doesn't fulfill the Iceman fantasy as well as his Travel power or his Signature already do.

This is pretty disappointing to hear for me.

As you said, making this a stationary skill makes it far too similar to Ice Beam - just a short cone instead of a longer beam...I don't get the need for this.

If the skill is going to be stationary by default can we get a talent that improves upon the mobile version we have now?

Widen the cone, have the snow aura that the ice golems get now around Iceman while channeling (so it will guarantee being able to keep damage on a single target), increased movement speed and add 1% dmg per 1% attack speed? Please?! Or add this sort of thing to some talent that already exists if you don't think it warrants it's own.

That would make it a talent that more than a few of us would like to see, I'd wager.


And speaking of Ice Slide combat tricks...what are the chances to allow us to move during the sig's animation? A la Nightcrawler.

WallcrawlerPosts: 4,477 Cosmic

@MichaelMayhem said:

Removing Frozen Orb's cooldown is really, really hard to justify without turning the power into "throw snowballs", and make it look nothing like what it does now. It's that far beyond what should be accepted for performance and game visibility for a spammable attack. Compared to Doom or Storm's ball lightning attacks, you could stack 5 of each of those on top of each other and it STILL wouldn't equal one single Frozen Orb. It's also not terribly iconic to Iceman - it's our homage to a beloved power from the genre, but the general feeling was that true Iceman fans would prefer using beams or snowblower as an iconic area clearing skill - something more direct from his power set. Those powers aren't satisfying that role at the moment, so we'll need to improve on that to make the Frozen Orb change more digestible.

Any chance for a 3rd charge on this so it's still a frequent Area clearing option?

I don't want the animation changed, that's one of my favorite things about this skill.

Frozen visuals are pretty hard to see, which makes Shatter not feel great. May need to do a pass on using a more solid visual rather than a material.

What about encasing enemies in a block of ice when they're frozen?

More Chill applicators are warranted. Likely to show up on Ice Wall or Snow Plow.

Icicles? Would bring it in line with Chillblains.

WallcrawlerPosts: 4,477 Cosmic

@MichaelMayhem said:

@Drazhar said:

@MichaelMayhem said:

Snowblower has mixed feedback regarding stationary vs moving. Stationary makes it a better area clear, but does force it into a similar space as Ice Beam. Moving is better for theme (it was added due to requests for more Ice Slide combat tricks), but is harder to keep damage on a target. We can return this on a talent, but it has the problem of needing to be added on to another talent - on its own, it's too niche to eat an entire talent slot, and added onto any other talent, it may create friction if you want only a portion of that talent and not the change to Snowblower. Best course of action at this point seems to be to keep it stationary, since the mobile version can't be as fast as the ice slide would want to be and doesn't fulfill the Iceman fantasy as well as his Travel power or his Signature already do.

This is pretty disappointing to hear for me.

As you said, making this a stationary skill makes it far too similar to Ice Beam - just a short cone instead of a longer beam...I don't get the need for this.

If the skill is going to be stationary by default can we get a talent that improves upon the mobile version we have now?

Widen the cone, have the snow aura that the ice golems get now around Iceman while channeling (so it will guarantee being able to keep damage on a single target), increased movement speed and add 1% dmg per 1% attack speed? Please?! Or add this sort of thing to some talent that already exists if you don't think it warrants it's own.

That would make it a talent that more than a few of us would like to see, I'd wager.


And speaking of Ice Slide combat tricks...what are the chances to allow us to move during the sig's animation? A la Nightcrawler.

The predominant issue is that, even with a circular aura around himself, you just walk in circles spewing particles everywhere. You aren't moving fast enough to warrant the art (especially when comparing it to his Travel or Signature powers). As a stationary power, it does serve as a reliable AoE option even if Ice Beam is upgraded to become a cooldown layer. Increasing the movement speed is a dangerous proposition as it has no cost or windup time, so anything beyond the normal walk speed cap makes it cross over into problematic mobility territory.

Regarding the signature, I attempted to do so tonight but it isn't doable with his animation in a way that works. With Nightcrawler, the player is actually hidden and everything is performed through particles and "smoke and mirrors". Iceman is actually physically animated into the air, and moving him around creates some very disturbing visual issues that change his signature from a display of flair and skill into a clown-fiesta.

I get what you're saying, but I would still take the utility of being able to do damage while moving than have another stationary skill.

What if the Ice Beam talent also turned Snowblower into a stationary skill? That way you're gaining the damage layer, and those who want the beam as a layer, and a stationary cone aoe spam get both with the one talent?

Increased movement speed could become a problem, but what if it was capped at a certain amount that you felt comfortable with? Juggernaut can move at fast speeds with his infinite sig talent, afterall.


Haha, that's a shame about the signature. Maybe animation tweaks sometime in the future when there's more time could fix it.

Location Waiting for more Colossal UpdatesPosts: 573 Amazing

Perhaps a better way to make Shatter powers feel better is to make them interact with Chill and Deep Freeze a bit more than just an extra burst of damage, a little more variety if you will. This could give each shatter power their niche and help make using one Shatter power more special.

For Example:

  • Icicles could become a Shatter power by providing a small AoE burst in when it hits a Chilled enemy (like Deadpool’s Bang Bang).
  • Icy Arsenal could get an execute affix when it hits a Chilled enemy
  • Frozen Lance could have a higher critical/brutal chance when hitting a frozen enemy. (If you were to add Frozen Fist as a melee alternative, it could do the same thing).
  • Arctic Wave could have the ability/chance to instantly defeat non-boss enemies when hitting chilled/frozen targets.
  • Glacial Slam/Hail Drop could have a huge AoE shatter effect when hitting a frozen enemy.
Posts: 3,932 Cosmic
edited February 16

@MichaelMayhem said:
Removing Frozen Orb's cooldown is really, really hard to justify without turning the power into "throw snowballs", and make it look nothing like what it does now. It's that far beyond what should be accepted for performance and game visibility for a spammable attack. Compared to Doom or Storm's ball lightning attacks, you could stack 5 of each of those on top of each other and it STILL wouldn't equal one single Frozen Orb. It's also not terribly iconic to Iceman - it's our homage to a beloved power from the genre, but the general feeling was that true Iceman fans would prefer using beams or snowblower as an iconic area clearing skill - something more direct from his power set. Those powers aren't satisfying that role at the moment, so we'll need to improve on that to make the Frozen Orb change more digestible.

Again, just speaking for myself, gameplay always trumps visuals. If you need to make it look wimpy, but it still works the same, I'd much rather have that than gimp the power itself just to keep it looking all swooshy. Maybe instead of sending out active snowy particles (since that seems to be the hangup), retool the skill so that it just has a "sub zero aura" around it, and the graphic can just be a simple transparency layer (or whatever that would be) without all the particle craziness. Some of his crazier Ultimate appearances when he went full-on Omega Level had him controlling temperature on a quantum level, that could be what the "aura" is doing.

If you don't think its important for Iceman to have it, though, then give the mechanic to someone else. Make Doom's orb have a wide base radius like Frozen Orb did, since that just sends out little lightning beams rather than a 360 degree snowstorm. Someone should have that "iconic area clearing skill" that's still the "homage to a beloved power from the genre". The mechanic itself is still unique, useful, and should be preserved somewhere.

Again, like I mentioned above...think about making it a channeled skill rather than attack-speed based, so you're doing the same DPS across the same area of effect as stacking multiple Orbs before, without making it weavable, and without creating multiple redundant visuals.

Frozen visuals are pretty hard to see, which makes Shatter not feel great. May need to do a pass on using a more solid visual rather than a material.

Big agree here. Its so difficult to see when someone's ready for Shatter that I just basically ignore the mechanic, and if my Lance happens to hit them when they're primed, then great.

I would personally make it so it sends out a definite "signal" when they're ready to Shatter, like a column of ice crystals rising up into the air, or a big flash of some kind, rather than a static graphic that appears on them...that way its more apparent that the game is telling you "hey! time to hit your Shatter skill!" and you can learn to react to that signal appropriately.

Posts: 1,889 Cosmic
edited February 16

@MichaelMayhem said:

@Drazhar said:

@MichaelMayhem said:

Snowblower has mixed feedback regarding stationary vs moving. Stationary makes it a better area clear, but does force it into a similar space as Ice Beam. Moving is better for theme (it was added due to requests for more Ice Slide combat tricks), but is harder to keep damage on a target. We can return this on a talent, but it has the problem of needing to be added on to another talent - on its own, it's too niche to eat an entire talent slot, and added onto any other talent, it may create friction if you want only a portion of that talent and not the change to Snowblower. Best course of action at this point seems to be to keep it stationary, since the mobile version can't be as fast as the ice slide would want to be and doesn't fulfill the Iceman fantasy as well as his Travel power or his Signature already do.

This is pretty disappointing to hear for me.

As you said, making this a stationary skill makes it far too similar to Ice Beam - just a short cone instead of a longer beam...I don't get the need for this.

If the skill is going to be stationary by default can we get a talent that improves upon the mobile version we have now?

Widen the cone, have the snow aura that the ice golems get now around Iceman while channeling (so it will guarantee being able to keep damage on a single target), increased movement speed and add 1% dmg per 1% attack speed? Please?! Or add this sort of thing to some talent that already exists if you don't think it warrants it's own.

That would make it a talent that more than a few of us would like to see, I'd wager.


And speaking of Ice Slide combat tricks...what are the chances to allow us to move during the sig's animation? A la Nightcrawler.

The predominant issue is that, even with a circular aura around himself, you just walk in circles spewing particles everywhere. You aren't moving fast enough to warrant the art (especially when comparing it to his Travel or Signature powers). As a stationary power, it does serve as a reliable AoE option even if Ice Beam is upgraded to become a cooldown layer. Increasing the movement speed is a dangerous proposition as it has no cost or windup time, so anything beyond the normal walk speed cap makes it cross over into problematic mobility territory.

I find there's still definitely some value to that movement, even if it's not sped up. Playing around with it tonight, I frequently used it against enemies like Rhino and MGH mutants to pass through behind them in reaction to telegraphs and resume my melee attacks, where as a Snow Plow would've shot me well past them. I also used it as a gap closer when Glacial Slam was on cooldown, since the moderate range on it meant that while I wasn't closing as quickly, I was still doing damage the whole time I was moving in. I know it's generally taboo to use two fillers in a build, but with many of his powers rocking 4s and 6s cooldowns, I don't have tons of room for yet more layers and don't feel as bad cutting one out for more granular mobility.

MutatedPosts: 304 Amazing

Thank you so much for looking into buffing Chilblain so that it's a competitive damage option. That's such a huge weight lifted off of my, admittedly, small shoulders!

I'm eager to see what you guys come up with for the Chill/Freeze/Shatter mechanic. The visual really does get lost in all the chaos. We either need something in the buff bar, something around the enemy like an aura, or something else that you can think of. I'm just happy to know you're looking into it.

At this point, my irrational hatred for Flash Freeze can take a backseat.

WallcrawlerPosts: 4,477 Cosmic
edited February 16

@ClockworkBard said:

@MichaelMayhem said:

@Drazhar said:

@MichaelMayhem said:

Snowblower has mixed feedback regarding stationary vs moving. Stationary makes it a better area clear, but does force it into a similar space as Ice Beam. Moving is better for theme (it was added due to requests for more Ice Slide combat tricks), but is harder to keep damage on a target. We can return this on a talent, but it has the problem of needing to be added on to another talent - on its own, it's too niche to eat an entire talent slot, and added onto any other talent, it may create friction if you want only a portion of that talent and not the change to Snowblower. Best course of action at this point seems to be to keep it stationary, since the mobile version can't be as fast as the ice slide would want to be and doesn't fulfill the Iceman fantasy as well as his Travel power or his Signature already do.

This is pretty disappointing to hear for me.

As you said, making this a stationary skill makes it far too similar to Ice Beam - just a short cone instead of a longer beam...I don't get the need for this.

If the skill is going to be stationary by default can we get a talent that improves upon the mobile version we have now?

Widen the cone, have the snow aura that the ice golems get now around Iceman while channeling (so it will guarantee being able to keep damage on a single target), increased movement speed and add 1% dmg per 1% attack speed? Please?! Or add this sort of thing to some talent that already exists if you don't think it warrants it's own.

That would make it a talent that more than a few of us would like to see, I'd wager.


And speaking of Ice Slide combat tricks...what are the chances to allow us to move during the sig's animation? A la Nightcrawler.

The predominant issue is that, even with a circular aura around himself, you just walk in circles spewing particles everywhere. You aren't moving fast enough to warrant the art (especially when comparing it to his Travel or Signature powers). As a stationary power, it does serve as a reliable AoE option even if Ice Beam is upgraded to become a cooldown layer. Increasing the movement speed is a dangerous proposition as it has no cost or windup time, so anything beyond the normal walk speed cap makes it cross over into problematic mobility territory.

I find there's still definitely some value to that movement, even if it's not sped up. Playing around with it tonight, I frequently used it against enemies like Rhino and MGH mutants to pass through behind them in reaction to telegraphs and resume my melee attacks, where as a Snow Plow would've shot me well past them. I also used it as a gap closer when Glacial Slam was on cooldown, since the moderate range on it meant that while I wasn't closing as quickly, I was still doing damage the whole time I was moving in. I know it's generally taboo to use two fillers in a build, but with many of his powers rocking 4s and 6s cooldowns, I don't have tons of room for yet more layers and don't feel as bad cutting one out for more granular mobility.

Exactly. And if you need to move to stay alive, you can use this to take less damage while still dealing some.

I was thinking more about this, Goblin has the Nitrous Boost which gives you a set movement speed. However it costs spirit...maybe this could drain a minimal amount of Frost Armor if you have it available?

Either way though, I still like having the mobility of the skill with or without the added movement speed if that is deemed out of line for a skill that has no resource cost.

Posts: 1,016 Fantastic

@MichaelMayhem said:

It definitely has always been an issue. Anytime you see one or more Frozen-Orb spamming Icemen in a group setting, it contributes highly to being unable to see anything going on in the fight. There are many powers that fall under this category that will either receive art revisions or other limitations moving forward. Being able to see what is going on in a battle is important and something we need to take more actions to help fix.

Really? We've been asking for reduction in the visual clutter for ages and the solution suddenly is to nerf one skill and completely break one playstyle for the character?

Frozen Orb is low, very low in the list of offenders for visual clutter, especially because it CAN be disabled if you turn other players effects off.

If you really want to reduce visual clutter start by:

  • Adding the "ground" power effects from other players to the same option in the menu (Strange's symbol, Human Torch's 4, etc). Because even when the option is turned on we keep seeing other player's ground effects. The actual powers such as Frozen Orb, we don't.
  • Allow us to turn off other players nameplates because when they're stacked together against a boss you can't see anything the boss is doing.
  • Remove the damned XP Orbs and just give their XP directly from kills and objectives. They don't stop AFK farmers, they just stop us even more from seeing what's going on in the fights (AND waste all our Dashes grabbing them).
  • Reduce ENEMY power effects. When Pyro and Sauron are setting the whole screen afire, it most certainly isn't Frozen Orb that's causing us not to see anything.
Posts: 1,140 Fantastic
edited February 16

@MichaelMayhem said:
Some commentary while I digest and make some iterations for tomorrow:

Seems like Chillblains is pretty popular - making it more of a viable choice seems like an easy win.

Removing Frozen Orb's cooldown is really, really hard to justify without turning the power into "throw snowballs", and make it look nothing like what it does now. It's that far beyond what should be accepted for performance and game visibility for a spammable attack. Compared to Doom or Storm's ball lightning attacks, you could stack 5 of each of those on top of each other and it STILL wouldn't equal one single Frozen Orb. It's also not terribly iconic to Iceman - it's our homage to a beloved power from the genre, but the general feeling was that true Iceman fans would prefer using beams or snowblower as an iconic area clearing skill - something more direct from his power set. Those powers aren't satisfying that role at the moment, so we'll need to improve on that to make the Frozen Orb change more digestible.

The timings of his skills can get pretty diverse with different talent builds and will need to be taken into account, such as Icebreaker also reducing Flash Freeze.

Frozen visuals are pretty hard to see, which makes Shatter not feel great. May need to do a pass on using a more solid visual rather than a material.

More Chill applicators are warranted. Likely to show up on Ice Wall or Snow Plow.

Deep Freeze powers having Ice Armor restoration and cooldowns is mixed and I'm not inclined to make any changes just yet. Having a rotational power like Ice Slick also act as a self-heal is powerful and I'm not sure if that aspect has been fully explored by those are used to it as a spammable. If other powers serve the spammable area clear better (powers that are designed to do so), perhaps that will help the Freeze powers be better justified as cooldown layers.

Snowblower has mixed feedback regarding stationary vs moving. Stationary makes it a better area clear, but does force it into a similar space as Ice Beam. Moving is better for theme (it was added due to requests for more Ice Slide combat tricks), but is harder to keep damage on a target. We can return this on a talent, but it has the problem of needing to be added on to another talent - on its own, it's too niche to eat an entire talent slot, and added onto any other talent, it may create friction if you want only a portion of that talent and not the change to Snowblower. Best course of action at this point seems to be to keep it stationary, since the mobile version can't be as fast as the ice slide would want to be and doesn't fulfill the Iceman fantasy as well as his Travel power or his Signature already do.

I like the mobility on snowblower.. but if you did put it on a talent, I suggest the one making his death from above power spend ice armor to increase damage. Both have movement tags, so they synergize well together. Almost all of Iceman's kit is area tagged, people complaining about area clearing just aren't taking advantage of the right powers. Snowblower as a channeled movement fulfills an unique niche because it works as a mobile chill/frostbite applicator.

Location Xavier's School for Gifted Ninja GiftersPosts: 811 Amazing
edited February 16

Cool update.

Posts: 1,539 Fantastic
edited February 16

Admittedly, I will never use Snowblower (moving version). I just simply cannot bring myself to use those types of moves, and I know that's on me. All-In, Nunchuck Bulldoze, Relentless Justice, Whip Lash, ect. A few pull it off, of course, if it looks cool, like Elektra's. I think it's the idea of moving in circles in groups of enemies, wasting damage a lot, going back and forth to clear just doesn't feel like great ARPG gameplay to me. It's why I was campaigning in Iceman's feedback thread for AOEs from Jean, Magneto, or Storm, those I thought translate really well to "converting" to Iceman's visuals or powers.

I never ever thought he'd be a focus of a TC anytime soon, so this is pretty much the only chance to request one more AOE layer beyond the moving Snowblower people are asking for. I think it would go a long way laying down Slick, then Crashing Hail (as example), and then fill out kit with Icicles (or whatever you're going to do with Chillblains), his snow lob (maybe speed that up? So he pegs enemies with it), ect.

If not, that's ok too. I'm sure people are excited that he's even being tweaked at all.

Location b a m fs p a c ePosts: 2,401 Fantastic
edited February 16

Another vote for mobile Snowblower in some form, here. It might be beyond the scope of this update, but I really liked @ClockworkBard 's idea upthread: https://forums.marvelheroes.com/discussion/comment/4086787#Comment_4086787

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