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[Test Center] Iceman Update (2/22)

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic

@LordBalen said:

@Faffinette said:

lol i noticed that, i saw your post get deleted like 3 times? hahah

Anyway, Ice Slick is one of the 3 total Deep Freezes we have - Ice Slick, Flash Freeze (or Frost Nova), and Frozen Orbs. Keeping it on Ice Slick is to everyone's best interest since Frozen Orbs is terrible for melee builds, and also pretty bad at the job since it takes a while to come out and hit - and Flash Freeze is terrible all around.

Speaking of Frozen Orbs @MichaelMayhem shouldn't Chill be on Frozen Orbs as well? I assume Snow Plow is Glacial Slam? In which case ranged builds still don't have a reliable way to apply it other than weaving in Icebeam/Snowblower - which's terrible for a myriad of reasons.

Someone must not like me (which is understandable)

Honestly, I don't think Deep Freeze can proc more than twice within a certain time period (much longer than a two freeze rotation) since it seems to have a period where Crowd Control will not proc again. I find Ice Slick redundant and feels somewhat unnecessary to stack all of those effects on one ability.

Separating the power - buffing Ice Slick's DoT and Slow while making Flash Freeze a ranged AoE Freeze seems to be reasonable and doesn't really affect gameplay negatively since Deep Freeze can't really be proc'd more than what we already have access to.

Don't give them ideas! :D Idk if they wanna try to make Flash freeze work somehow go right ahead but it seems easier to extend the radius on Frost Nova and make it a default skill. We get a more exciting skill + a talent slot! :p

Posts: 556 Amazing

@LordBalen said:

@Faffinette said:

lol i noticed that, i saw your post get deleted like 3 times? hahah

Anyway, Ice Slick is one of the 3 total Deep Freezes we have - Ice Slick, Flash Freeze (or Frost Nova), and Frozen Orbs. Keeping it on Ice Slick is to everyone's best interest since Frozen Orbs is terrible for melee builds, and also pretty bad at the job since it takes a while to come out and hit - and Flash Freeze is terrible all around.

Speaking of Frozen Orbs @MichaelMayhem shouldn't Chill be on Frozen Orbs as well? I assume Snow Plow is Glacial Slam? In which case ranged builds still don't have a reliable way to apply it other than weaving in Icebeam/Snowblower - which's terrible for a myriad of reasons.

Someone must not like me (which is understandable)

Honestly, I don't think Deep Freeze can proc more than twice within a certain time period (much longer than a two freeze rotation) since it seems to have a period where Crowd Control will not proc again. I find Ice Slick redundant and feels somewhat unnecessary to stack all of those effects on one ability.

Separating the power - buffing Ice Slick's DoT and Slow while making Flash Freeze a ranged AoE Freeze seems to be reasonable and doesn't really affect gameplay negatively since Deep Freeze can't really be proc'd more than what we already have access to.

Well supposedly, even if the target itself doesn't get frozen, it should still be tagged as such for purposes of Shattering. Wether or not this works properly 100% of the time is a little bumpy, but it is the intended design from back when Iceman first came up on TC.

Posts: 556 Amazing
edited February 17

@Celfix said:

@Faffinette said:

Snow plow is the Dash =p Which still isn't the ideal applicator for chill.

Oh wow, that's extremely dumb lmao. I didn't even notice it shattered in the first place - that's how irrelevant this skill is for combat purposes.

Location ThedasPosts: 15,956 Cosmic

The increase in Aoe to Snowblower sounds promising!

Posts: 1,016 Fantastic

@Jibikao said:

@MichaelMayhem said:
Iceman's changes did not make it in time for this build, sorry. Definitely will be in tomorrow.

  • Frozen Orb's problem is not the damage. Can we at least try to re-design the look of orbs to make it less graphic intense? So we can have a spammable orbs just like Storms and Doom's?

This!

Really, don't even need to redesign anything. Frozen Orb disappears if you mark not to show other player's powers. And if you don't, it's hardly that which will cause visual clutter. There are SEVERAL other powers that are worse offenders, especially the ground ones that can't be disabled from other players.

At least give as a damn choice of not making Frozen Orb a cooldown! Put the cooldown in a talent or something...

WallcrawlerPosts: 4,477 Cosmic

@MichaelMayhem said:
Iceman's changes did not make it in time for this build, sorry. Definitely will be in tomorrow.

Here's the notes to digest 'till then:

Chillblain base damage increased.

Frozen Orb base damage increased.

Icebreaker now also reduces the cooldown of Flash Freeze/Frost Nova

Hail Drop now Weakens enemies by default, and functions with the Avalanche talent.

Snowblower is once again stationary, serving the purpose of a channeled large-area clearing skill for Iceman. The radius of the power has been increased.

Snow Plow is now a Chill power. Snow Plow no longer Shatters.

Work of Art no longer scales as a Summon power by default, increasing its base damage and making it more attractive for non-Summon builds. The talent Chilling Constructs restores this functionality.

Ice Beam and Snowblower's Start and End animation times have been removed to improve responsiveness.

When Ice Beam is upgraded with Chilled to the Bone, it will have a slightly more impactful visual using an Ice Beam with each hand.

Frozen visuals for Ice Man now include a larger, more noticable particle of ice attached to the ground underneath each frozen target. This should help the effect be more noticeable in a fight.

Frozen Lance now always critically hits.

Everything except for stationary Snowblower looks good to me.

Please consider adding the mobility (and hopefully some other boosts) to one of his talents.

Also, would still like a 3rd charge on Frozen Orb.

Location The First CivilizationPosts: 5,169 Cosmic
edited February 17

@LordBalen said:

@Faffinette said:

lol i noticed that, i saw your post get deleted like 3 times? hahah

Anyway, Ice Slick is one of the 3 total Deep Freezes we have - Ice Slick, Flash Freeze (or Frost Nova), and Frozen Orbs. Keeping it on Ice Slick is to everyone's best interest since Frozen Orbs is terrible for melee builds, and also pretty bad at the job since it takes a while to come out and hit - and Flash Freeze is terrible all around.

Speaking of Frozen Orbs @MichaelMayhem shouldn't Chill be on Frozen Orbs as well? I assume Snow Plow is Glacial Slam? In which case ranged builds still don't have a reliable way to apply it other than weaving in Icebeam/Snowblower - which's terrible for a myriad of reasons.

Someone must not like me (which is understandable)

Honestly, I don't think Deep Freeze can proc more than twice within a certain time period (much longer than a two freeze rotation) since it seems to have a period where Crowd Control will not proc again. I find Ice Slick redundant and feels somewhat unnecessary to stack all of those effects on one ability.

Separating the power - buffing Ice Slick's DoT and Slow while making Flash Freeze a ranged AoE Freeze seems to be reasonable and doesn't really affect gameplay negatively since Deep Freeze can't really be proc'd more than what we already have access to.

Flash Freeze needs to affect more than one target and the hitch removed from it. Flash Freeze can perhaps create multiple beams that target multiple targets all around Iceman at the same time. Otherwise I suppose get rid of it and replace with a much larger Frost Nova. But the Freezing Beams tree might as well be renamed since there would only be two beam powers in it.

As far as Ice Slick, I agree that it has too much going for it. Remove the Deep Freeze from it.

@Kupursk said:

@Jibikao said:

@MichaelMayhem said:
Iceman's changes did not make it in time for this build, sorry. Definitely will be in tomorrow.

  • Frozen Orb's problem is not the damage. Can we at least try to re-design the look of orbs to make it less graphic intense? So we can have a spammable orbs just like Storms and Doom's?

This!

Really, don't even need to redesign anything. Frozen Orb disappears if you mark not to show other player's powers. And if you don't, it's hardly that which will cause visual clutter. There are SEVERAL other powers that are worse offenders, especially the ground ones that can't be disabled from other players.

At least give as a damn choice of not making Frozen Orb a cooldown! Put the cooldown in a talent or something...

Yes, agreed. As I had brought up before, smaller spiked spheres could be in place instead of what is now currently Frozen Orb. They can explode on impact so that they still have the area effect, or like Pulse Bolt can release bursts of cold.

How about this, @MichaelMayhem

  • Remove the 4 second cooldown and Deep Freeze on Ice Slick.

  • Replace Frozen Orb with the new visuals that I suggested of being smaller spiked orbs or something else. The Blizzard talent of Frozen Orb will still look the same and apply Deep Freeze.

  • Frost Nova will be a default power and will be a large ranged power that applies Deep Freeze. It changes to melee with the talent.

  • Flash Freeze will also stay as it's own power, with the hitch on it being fixed so that it can flow easily and smoothly.

  • Snowblower get's it movement mechanic by selecting a talent for it that is included with the Avalanche talent.

Posts: 1,016 Fantastic
edited February 17

@ApolloSeven said:

Yes, agreed. As I had brought up before, smaller spiked spheres could be in place instead of what is now currently Frozen Orb. They can explode on impact so that they still have the area effect, or like Pulse Bolt can release bursts of cold.

I honestly don't think Frozen Orb needs to be changed at all. It's visual effect is not worse than many many others in the game as far as Visual Clutter is concerned.

Besides, if visual clutter is getting in the way, the first thing to do would be disable other players' powers in the options menu. By doing so other peoples' Frozen Orbs go away.

I used to play Storm with Ball Lightning precisely because it felt sort of like playing a Sorceress in D2 with frozen orb. Then Iceman was added to the game and made it even more fun with his own frozen orb. To me, without that skill to spam the joy of playing this hero is gone, really.

Location South of SanityPosts: 43 Mighty

Played him up through 60 on the TC. So heres what I noticed/think.

-1) Powers:

  • For the most part, the powers are good. I like some of the suggestions in the thread but overall, I was pretty happy about the power changes. I still have no use for chillblains except as a leveling tool to get me to a different unlock. But with the spirit changes, it becomes even less relevant, even if you tack on percentage summon. Swapping that out for say, tossing ice blocks at someone and talenting it to turn into say, a boulder that goes rolling through the middle of mobs would be entertaining, and useful.

  • Hail Drop- So I was playing for several hours today, and swapped to this power immediately. A couple of things I noticed about it. First, its casting time is a bit too long. It wont work as a shatter power if the only way it will shatter is ani cancel. It takes too long to fire off, and reach its target. Most times whatever was frozen has unfrozen by the time it gets there. Second, I don't think its shatter component is working. Its damage was pretty consistent throughout the entire time I used it, and was significantly lower than Glacial Slam. But when it did manage to hit someone frozen, it didnt change the damage numbers scrolling out. Same set amount.

-Work of Art: I like the pacify effect, and the range increase.

  • Frozen Orb: Contrary to what others are saying, I actually like the change. The wandering orb sucked horribly, and spamming FO wasn't really effective for me. The way it is with the talent makes it more useful for stationary bosses, or sitting it in the middle of a group of mobs. Its not ideal, dont get me wrong, but to me it works better. I actually slot it now.

-Arctic Wave: I liked the talent option for it, but since it was tied to Hail Drop, I eventually dropped it.

  • Golems suck at holding aggro. That might be because I use them as stock wondering mobs without micromanaging them, but if they arent going to hold aggro without micro managing then it kind of defeats the purpose of having them for me.

-2) Itemization on items seems funky. Not necessarily bad, just kind of out of line with what I see on the live server. Kind of like what I was seeing on beast right after the launch on live.

-3) Suggestions:

  • Hail Drop: Reduce casting time, increase missile speed. Nothing over the top, just slightly on both to insure it can actually be used without having to be chain cast right after a freeze power. Check to insure that the shatter application is working correctly, because I honestly dont think it is.

  • Work of Art: Adding a taunt to work of art would be awesome. :)

  • Arctic Wave: Talented option: Maybe Decrease the size of the singular spawn of the Hail Shard, turn it into three smaller ones that launch from each sides and the middle, tweak the range on Arctic Wave to slightly further, narrow the cone a bit to compensate if needed.

  • Ice Block: Its a long CD really small heal/armor restore. It needs something added, especially with immobility. Tag it to explode in a pbaoe, or add mobility to it.

  • Glacial Wall: Add a talent that makes it Avalanche, and rolls down over mobs. Honestly its one of those talents I rarely see used. It just kind of sits there, might as well do something with it. An Avalanche style power would be highly amusing.

Basically thats what I've got. Without ripping apart the current powerset, that would go some ways to revitalizing his lesser used powers, and fixing the somewhat clunkier aspects of the new talents.

Other than that, I really liked almost all of what you did with him. He was fun to play.

Thanks Guys, good luck and have fun.

Posts: 380 Amazing

@Kupursk said:
I honestly don't think Frozen Orb needs to be changed at all. It's visual effect is not worse than many many others in the game as far as Visual Clutter is concerned.

@Divotox said:
I"m curious why all of a sudden frozen orb is a graphical issue. One would think this would have been seen as an issue on the TC when the ability was first created/introduced.

Response a few pages back from MichaelMayhem

It definitely has always been an issue. Anytime you see one or more Frozen-Orb spamming Icemen in a group setting, it contributes highly to being unable to see anything going on in the fight. There are many powers that fall under this category that will either receive art revisions or other limitations moving forward. Being able to see what is going on in a battle is important and something we need to take more actions to help fix.


The part that I put in bold bothers me. So what abilities are on the chopping block for visual nerfs? Either nerfed visually or given "charges." reducing visual clutter is going to make alot of characters feel bland if they go too far. I have to wonder if some characters haven't received a visual rework simply because they already fall within a "limit" of particle/visual fx.

Posts: 1,889 Cosmic
edited February 17

@XxMacrostheBlackxX said:

Awesome, thanks for the added clarification. Good luck, let me know what you find :D If you crunch the numbers and they are both viable options, then more choices is better, but if one choice is clearly superior over the other, which it appears to when taken at face value, then that wouldn't really be much of a choice at all.

I'm not exactly in love with my results so far. Under similar conditions of using Glacial Slam (and presumably Hail Drop when it works with Avalanche) and using it to shatter, the two powers seem to break even at about 785 Ice Armor spent. The shatter damage ends up dealing about 35% of what the Slam deals directly, not accounting for any keyword differences and gear impact that would have. Hail Drop deals less damage, and so that percentage would be a little higher.

Avalanche increases just the Slam damage, but not the shatter. Icebreaker doubles the shatter and gives a small boost to the Slam damage, leaving the shatter to be worth in the ballpark of 65% of the direct damage. If you're not shattering, Avalanche only needs to spend 100 Armor to match the flat Icebreaker +5% bonus. But if you are shattering, it has to make up the ground Icebreaker's much larger shatter bonus gives it, which comes out to needing almost 40% extra damage from Avalanche.

To meet that consistently, you'll need to generate that nearly 800 Armor in the 6 second cooldown before your next Glacial Slam. His base Armor is 730. Against a single target, Chillblain can generate about half of your max Armor from just spamming and no interruptions. The Armor generation doesn't have an internal cooldown, and if a beam hits multiple targets you get 5% for every one of them. Frozen Blades hits less targets but also hits about 40% faster. Extra Attack Speed helps both. Powers like Ice Slick help a lot, and I personally always Ice Slick immediately before a slam anyways. So in a vacuum against a single dummy with some okay gear, you can reach that break-even point without excessive amount of effort.

But, I've just been comparing them in identical situations, which don't reflect equal potential. In this scenario, Glacial Slam is in its best possible environment. Nothing is fighting back, I'm throwing everything at generating Armor, etc. Meanwhile, a build that just uses Slam as its one shatter is the worst case scenario for Icebreaker. Why would I use just that when adding more freezes and shatters only multiplies the advantage? Avalanche is stuck to just benefiting the one power and relies entirely on how well it can generate and hopefully not lose the Armor it needs as fuel. And let's not forget, you're sacrificing mitigation for this. Oh, and Icebreaker is cooling down one of the best sigs in the game.

There is a theoretical breaking point where you've just thrown so much Armor at Avalanche that it can't help but give the better TTK than anything Icebreaker can put out, assuming the raw gear sacrifice you make to get there doesn't bury it first, but I can't see a reason to use it all by itself in a real environment. As it is right now, I'm using Glacial Slam in my build and I'm still going to take Icebreaker.

Location New YorkPosts: 500 Amazing

@ClockworkBard said:

There is a theoretical breaking point where you've just thrown so much Armor at Avalanche that it can't help but give the better TTK than anything Icebreaker can put out, assuming the raw gear sacrifice you make to get there doesn't bury it first, but I can't see a reason to use it all by itself in a real environment. As it is right now, I'm using Glacial Slam in my build and I'm still going to take Icebreaker.

Wow excellent work. Dev's @MichaelMayhem please take a look at this.

Posts: 573 Amazing

What changed between TC builds? Anything? Because the main post doesn't seem to have changed any.

Posts: 26 Mighty

@Faffinette said:
Well supposedly, even if the target itself doesn't get frozen, it should still be tagged as such for purposes of Shattering. Wether or not this works properly 100% of the time is a little bumpy, but it is the intended design from back when Iceman first came up on TC.

Just tested it out, shatter definitely works even if the visual doesn't proc, but I still don't think Deep Freeze on Ice Slick is necessary or thematic.
It just seems overly convenient for a single power to have Vulnerability, DoT, Resource Restoration AND Stun. In addition, it's a power that procs on other powers that already have Shatter AND Crowd Control mechanics.

Again I'd like to reiterate that if we make Flash Freeze a ranged AoE power that has Deep Freeze properties and Shatter bonus it would balance the removal of Deep Freeze from Ice Slick AS WELL AS make Flash Freeze have a purpose and be in line with Frost Nova.
All without severely impacting the mechanics of any existing builds.
This change may also allow Ice Slick to have a lower or no cooldown, returning a "spammable" ability to his power set.

How does a slippery floor freeze a group of people??

Location South of SanityPosts: 43 Mighty

@LordBalen said:
How does a slippery floor freeze a group of people??

So, at around -28 degrees C flesh freezes in about 15 minutes, give or take. If he cools the surrounding air as well as the ground upon impact of the slick (and given that he is an omega level mutant, he could probably start an ice age if he was in the mood.), he could very easily cause a super cooled area in which everything froze.

Of course, everyone would more than likely die from that, let alone shattering their frozen tissues.... but hey, its comics.

You could experiment by dumping liquid nitrogen on the floor, and having things freeze to it, to get the idea. The key though, is controlling the air in that area. Super cool it, and everything's a popsicle.

You're welcome. :)

MutatedPosts: 305 Amazing

@ApolloSeven said:
Flash Freeze needs to affect more than one target and the hitch removed from it. Flash Freeze can perhaps create multiple beams that target multiple targets all around Iceman at the same time. Otherwise I suppose get rid of it and replace with a much larger Frost Nova. But the Freezing Beams tree might as well be renamed since there would only be two beam powers in it.

Call the first tree Arctic Assault! I mean the second tree is called Chilling Constructs which also happens to be the name of one of his talents. So clearly appropriate names isn't taken very much into consideration. :P

If, and I mean if, they can make Flash Freeze not have the delay/hitch before or after casting that pathetic looking laser beam, and they manage to make it a ranged AOE, then fine. It could look like a burst of frosty air that freezes everyone in the area. But I still believe that just giving us the range on the old Frost Nova pre-BUE so it affects the screen, and thereby freeing up a talent space, is a much more direct and simple solution to this particular problem.

Then the movement of Snowblower could have its OWN talent for those that want to take it, since that was proving to be a difficult situation. Or let the talent turn Ice Slick into a spammable Chill power for those that want it. Or an extra charge on Freezing Orb. Seems more like a two birds, one stone kind of deal considering they have never gotten Flash Freeze right and in fact made it worse instead.

I trust Gaz on quite a few things. This ability - this abysmal thin white line - isn't one of them. (Good lord. I crusade harder against Flash Freeze than I do Diamond Whirlwind.)

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic
edited February 17

@ApolloSeven said:

@LordBalen said:

@Faffinette said:

  • Frost Nova will be a default power and will be a large ranged power that applies Deep Freeze. It changes to melee with the talent.

  • Flash Freeze will also stay as it's own power, with the hitch on it being fixed so that it can flow easily and smoothly.

  • Snowblower get's it movement mechanic by selecting a talent for it that is included with the Glacial Slam talent in the fourth row (forget the name of it).

The thing about that is Frost nova and Flash Freeze can't exactly co-exist.. Not with the same affect as that immediately makes both a must. Since we are already forced into Flash Freeze, this is defo not the way to go. I don't mind being forced into Frost Nova as long as it has a better radius so it can stand alone in a ranged build. Unless they remove the 200% vuln on Frost Nova, increase the radius, add a dot to it and for melee it will turn into 200% vuln + melee tag.. But then that still means we have to use Flash Freeze =D

Yea I don't see anyone that would actually want to use the Glacial Slam talent, especially for a ranged so it makes sense.

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic
edited February 17

@Kupursk said:

@ApolloSeven said:

Yes, agreed. As I had brought up before, smaller spiked spheres could be in place instead of what is now currently Frozen Orb. They can explode on impact so that they still have the area effect, or like Pulse Bolt can release bursts of cold.

I honestly don't think Frozen Orb needs to be changed at all. It's visual effect is not worse than many many others in the game as far as Visual Clutter is concerned.

Besides, if visual clutter is getting in the way, the first thing to do would be disable other players' powers in the options menu. By doing so other peoples' Frozen Orbs go away.

I used to play Storm with Ball Lightning precisely because it felt sort of like playing a Sorceress in D2 with frozen orb. Then Iceman was added to the game and made it even more fun with his own frozen orb. To me, without that skill to spam the joy of playing this hero is gone, really.

Just shows that his design is flawed. Whenever he got introduced and we were told about Ice balls, people wanted to use just that and didn't really offer any other meaningful feedback.. I am one of those players that needs a proper rotation to play, 8 skills is already hard enough to play with as is.. So he was always lacking for me, sure if you want to spam balls all day power to you but it doesn't offer much in terms of dps.

I wanna say.. With Icy we get limited choice really as we are pushed in quite a few powers because of it's tags.. 1 spender (Chillblain hopefully) Flash Freeze / Sig / Arctic wave or Frozen Lance / Ice slick for deep freeze and vuln / Dash.. From there we get to choose Ice Rock, Work of Art / Lance or Arctic wave again / Ice Beam / Frozen Orb. Some choices are there, therefore make it easier for us by removing Flash Freeze. Without it in my rotation my Icy feels better than he did before, not saying he's perfect as I always will want some sort of Ice Storm in his kit but he would be much better

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic
edited February 17

-Disregard-

Posts: 2,522 Cosmic

@AlecTheLad said:

@ApolloSeven said:
Flash Freeze needs to affect more than one target and the hitch removed from it. Flash Freeze can perhaps create multiple beams that target multiple targets all around Iceman at the same time. Otherwise I suppose get rid of it and replace with a much larger Frost Nova. But the Freezing Beams tree might as well be renamed since there would only be two beam powers in it.

Call the first tree Arctic Assault! I mean the second tree is called Chilling Constructs which also happens to be the name of one of his talents. So clearly appropriate names isn't taken very much into consideration. :P

If, and I mean if, they can make Flash Freeze not have the delay/hitch before or after casting that pathetic looking laser beam, and they manage to make it a ranged AOE, then fine. It could look like a burst of frosty air that freezes everyone in the area. But I still believe that just giving us the range on the old Frost Nova pre-BUE so it affects the screen, and thereby freeing up a talent space, is a much more direct and simple solution to this particular problem.

Then the movement of Snowblower could have its OWN talent for those that want to take it, since that was proving to be a difficult situation. Or let the talent turn Ice Slick into a spammable Chill power for those that want it. Or an extra charge on Freezing Orb. Seems more like a two birds, one stone kind of deal considering they have never gotten Flash Freeze right and in fact made it worse instead.

I trust Gaz on quite a few things. This ability - this abysmal thin white line - isn't one of them. (Good lord. I crusade harder against Flash Freeze than I do Diamond Whirlwind.)

Only thing about Diamond Whirlwind is that you aren't forced to take it, with Flash Freeze.. well you are due to the placement of Frost Nova in it's talents and it's radius.

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